Woody Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Quote: a believer can come to the point where WILLFUL/DELIBERATE/INTENTIONAL/HIGH-HANDED sinning can be a thing of the past. At least you boldly admit your heresy. This is what is being referred to ... sinlessness. This is what the Devil would like to have us believe. It has always been his message and his trap. You can stop sinning. You don't need God and the sacrifice of His son. Those IN Christ ... know that they will sin till the day they die. They need the blood of Jesus till the day they die. They are saved IN Christ ... not in the sinlessness that they might obtain. It is when we see His face ... that we are changed. Quote: "Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41 "It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649 Quote: "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1-2 May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 9, 2009 Moderators Posted February 9, 2009 Quote: a believer can come to the point where WILLFUL/DELIBERATE/INTENTIONAL/HIGH-HANDED sinning can be a thing of the past. At least you boldly admit your heresy. This is what is being referred to ... sinlessness. This is what the Devil would like to have us believe. It has always been his message and his trap. You can stop sinning. You don't need God and the sacrifice of His son. Those IN Christ ... know that they will sin till the day they die. They need the blood of Jesus till the day they die. They are saved IN Christ ... not in the sinlessness that they might obtain. It is when we see His face ... that we are changed. Quote: "Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41 "It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649 Quote: "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1-2 Well, that makes Jesus a heretic to. Either that or He was making an impossible command to the invalid who was healed: [color:red]"See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you." Jn 5:14 ESV. Or His command to the forgiven, adulterous woman: [color:red]"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more." Jn 8:11 ESV The Apostle John must certainly be a heretic too, for he claimed: 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:4-10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. I know that it is impossible for God to lie, so the above statements must be true. So call me a heretic if you want, but I am confident I am in good company. Either that or you would have to explain what Jesus and the Apostle John meant. Gerry
Moderators John317 Posted February 9, 2009 Moderators Posted February 9, 2009 Quote: a believer can come to the point where WILLFUL/DELIBERATE/INTENTIONAL/HIGH-HANDED sinning can be a thing of the past. At least you boldly admit your heresy. This is what is being referred to ... sinlessness. This is what the Devil would like to have us believe. It has always been his message and his trap. You can stop sinning. You don't need God and the sacrifice of His son. We never come to the point where we don't need God and the sacrifice of Jesus. No one is saying that we do. In fact, it is just the opposite. We need him more and more all the time if we would resist sin. We're helpless to resist without Him. If we pray for God to empower us to resist and overcome sin, He is faithful to answer that prayer. He does give us power to resist sin. That doesn't mean we won't ever commit a sin, but it does mean that we can't blame God if we fall. Study 1 John 5-2: 10 and 1 John 3: 1-10. It's not heresy to believe that God empowers the Christian to resist every temptation to sin. The devil would like you to believe that you MUST go on practicing sin all of your life and that you can't stop practicing sin. Quote: Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. In Heavenly Places (1967), page 146, paragraph 5 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 9, 2009 Moderators Posted February 9, 2009 Quote: It is when we see His face ... that we are changed. "Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41 "It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649 Quote: "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1-2 Friend, if you are looking to the second coming for character change, I can categorically tell you that you will be sorely disappointed. Character change, i.e. sanctification is to occur here and now! What changes at His coming that will complete the restoration? 1 Cor 15 makes it clear, "...but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye....for this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." THEN TOTAL SINLESSNESS WILL BECOME POSSIBLE. You cannot complete something that was not even started to begin with. Gerry
Robert Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Again, guys, if you are going to be perfect you will avoid anything that smacks of "self" - sports, education, wealth...just to mention a few!
Robert Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Friend, if you are looking to the second coming for character change ...I know some characters! teehe Gerry, if I believed the way you do I would have to shoot myself. I mean it must be terrible never having assurance by constantly looking at your performance!
Woody Posted February 9, 2009 Posted February 9, 2009 Quote: It is when we see His face ... that we are changed. Quote: "Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41 "It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649 Friend, if you are looking to the second coming for character change, I can categorically tell you that you will be sorely disappointed. Character change, i.e. sanctification is to occur here and now! What changes at His coming that will complete the restoration? 1 Cor 15 makes it clear, "...but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye....for this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality." THEN TOTAL SINLESSNESS WILL BECOME POSSIBLE. You cannot complete something that was not even started to begin with. Gerry Every single Christian who ever gave their heart to God ... started this process. Rather elementary. But I would not want their behaviour in Heaven. That is why we have to be changed before we enter the gates. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 10, 2009 Moderators Posted February 10, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Friend, if you are looking to the second coming for character change ...I know some characters! teehe Gerry, if I believed the way you do I would have to shoot myself. I mean it must be terrible never having assurance by constantly looking at your performance! See Robert? You have made judgments about me based upon your premise that even believers remain rotten to the core, and that because I believe in obeying God and that it is possible by God's grace to have willful/deliberate/premeditated sinning as a past experience, you have concluded that I must be preoccupied in constantly looking at my performance whether it's perfect or not. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Try making a straight furrow while looking back to examine how straight it is! Any believer who wants to make a beeline for the finish line must "look to Jesus, the founder and perfecter or our faith," Heb 12:2. Anyone who knows a little about gardening will not be preoccupied with the plants bearing fruit. No, a gardener will be preoccupied with watering, fertilizing, and weeding the plants. He knows that when he does that, the fruit is inevitable. Frankly, if I believed what you believe and teach, I would have to be an atheist. To have an encounter with a Jesus who claims to have been given "all power", whom the Bible describes as a Savior and a Deliverer, yet can't set me free from my sins, such a person is not worthy of belief or worship! I would have to junk the Bible as merely a book of fables! As for the assurance of salvation, again, you couldn't have been more wrong! I have absolute assurance that I have been forgiven and accepted because I have acceted Jesus as my LORD AND SAVIOR.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 10, 2009 Moderators Posted February 10, 2009 Quote: Every single Christian who ever gave their heart to God ... started this process. Rather elementary. But I would not want their behaviour in Heaven. That is why we have to be changed before we enter the gates. Red, if you truly believed what you have just said, how then can you claim that a believer will be sinning deliberately/willfully/intentionally until Jesus comes? To me, that smacks of a god too powerless and too small.
Moderators Gerr Posted February 10, 2009 Moderators Posted February 10, 2009 Again, guys, if you are going to be perfect you will avoid anything that smacks of "self" - sports, education, wealth...just to mention a few! If you want to be poor and ignorant, that's your business. I would never have had the privilege of touching the lives of many people had I followed your teachings. P.S. BTW, Bravus is still waiting for your answer.
Woody Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Quote: Every single Christian who ever gave their heart to God ... started this process. Rather elementary. But I would not want their behaviour in Heaven. That is why we have to be changed before we enter the gates. Red, if you truly believed what you have just said, how then can you claim that a believer will be sinning deliberately/willfully/intentionally until Jesus comes? To me, that smacks of a god too powerless and too small. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 ...how then can you claim that a believer will be sinning deliberately/willfully/intentionally until Jesus comes? To me, that smacks of a god too powerless and too small. Oh, I see, He is all powerful to stop you from "sinning deliberately/willfully/intentionally", but when it comes to living His life perfectly He is powerless to keep you from all sin just as He is without sin? We have a problem, Huston. Rob
Moderators Bravus Posted February 10, 2009 Moderators Posted February 10, 2009 That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? Truth is important
Woody Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 This is the point I have long been trying to make. The statements from Ellen White do not specify the restrictions of 'known' sins that Gerry makes. She says ... there is no excuse period. For when we know God as is our privilege to know Him ... WE WILL NOT SIN. It is willful sin ... if we do not avail ourselves to the privilege to know Him as He is. If we get to know Him ... we will not sin period. The ones who push this 'willful' stuff ... are just looking for an excuse for their sins and neglect to know God as is our privilege to know Him. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Stan Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Sin is so passé, no one seems to have it, but all can point it out in others.. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Woody Posted February 10, 2009 Posted February 10, 2009 Good point Stan. One finger pointing at someone else and the rest pointing back at yourself. Praise God ... it is not our life that is judged. It is the life of Jesus that is placed to my account. When my life is to be judged ... The life of Jesus will be judged in my place. Ain't that good news?!! Praise God. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members phkrause Posted February 10, 2009 Members Posted February 10, 2009 Amen Redwood. pk phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? Thank you! Now where's Gerry? Rob
Moderators John317 Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? Because God does not overrule our will. To sin or not to sin is our choice. It is not something God decides for us. The whole great controversy and the plan of salvation is about God's respect for our decisions. No one will be lost because of sin they were completely ignorant of and had no opportunity to learn about. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 Praise God ... it is not our life that is judged. It is the life of Jesus that is placed to my account. When my life is to be judged ... The life of Jesus will be judged in my place. Ain't that good news?!! Praise God. Our lives are "judged" in the Investigative Judgment that is going on right now. And for those who are in a faith-based, personal relationship with Christ, it is VERY Good News. Many people believe mistakenly that the robe of Christ's righteousness is only the imputed righteousness of Christ, but it is both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Christ. COL 310. There is an examination of character. Christ is not being examined. Those who make the claim of being followers of Christ are examined to see if their lives demonstrate that their faith in Christ has been genuine. The Bible itself is full of evidence of an investigation and testing of our lives, and also speaks of our being judged by our works (not works of law but of faith). See Romans 2: 6, 16; Rev. 2: 23; Ps. 11: 4,5; 7:9; 1 Chron. 29: 17; 1 Corinth. 4: 4, 5; 1 Thess. 2: 4; Romans 2: 6-8; Acts 17: 31; 1 Peter 4: 12, 17; James 2: 12; Rev. 14: 7; Job 23: 10; Ps. 17: 3; Jer. 11: 20; 12: 3. We are to live lives worthy of the gospel and of the calling of God-- Eph. 4: 1; Phil. 1: 27; Col. 1: 10; 1 Thess. 2: 12; 2 Thess. 1: 5; 1: 11; Rev. 3: 4. See GC 425, 428, 429 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 11, 2009 Moderators Posted February 11, 2009 It is willful sin ... if we do not avail ourselves to the privilege to know Him as He is. If we get to know Him ... we will not sin period. The ones who push this 'willful' stuff ... are just looking for an excuse for their sins and neglect to know God as is our privilege to know Him. The Bible itself and the Spirit of Prophecy make very clear distinctions between willful sins and sins that are unintentional and due to ignorance. Compare Lev. 5: 4, 5, 15 and Lev. 6: 1-7, which show that God made a distinction between intentional and unintentional sins. They were all sins, but naturally a man was not expected to bring an offering for his sin until he became aware of it. As soon as he became aware of his sin, was expected to bring an offering immediately and the sin would be forgiven him. In every society there is also a clear difference made between willful crimes and those which are accidental or due to ignorance. Any court in the land will treat willful, planned crimes differently than transgressions that are due to ignorance or those done in the heat of passion. The Lord is no different. Hebrews 10: 26 shows the difference plainly between willful sins and those which are not willful. 2 Peter 3: 5 describes those who deliberately or willfully ignore the truth that God created the world. It's clear that there is a difference between willfully ignoring a truth and simply lacking knowledge of the truth. In the following paragraphs, Ellen White shows the difference between willful sin and sin which is not willful-- Quote: When It Is Not Willful Sin. Those who are in connection with God are channels of the power of the Holy Spirit. If one who daily communes with God errs from the path, if he turns a moment from looking steadfastly unto Jesus, it is not because he sins willfully: for when he sees his mistake, he turns again and fastens his eyes upon Jesus, and the fact that he has erred does not make him less dear to the heart of God. He knows that he has communion with the Saviour, and when reproved for his mistake, in some matter of judgment, he does not walk sullenly and complain of God: but turns the mistake into a victory. He learns a lesson from the words of the Master, and takes heed that he be not again deceived. . . ." Manuscript Releases Volume Five [Nos. 260-346] (1990), page 349, paragraph 2 He was taken in the act and brought before Moses. It had already been declared that Sabbathbreaking should be punished with death, but it had not yet been revealed how the penalty was to be inflicted. The case was brought by Moses before the Lord, and the direction was given, "The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp." Numbers 15:35. The sins of blasphemy and willful Sabbathbreaking received the same punishment, being equally an expression of contempt for the authority of God. Patriarchs and Prophets (1890), page 409, paragraph 1 We can see above that "willful sin" is viewed as an "expression of contempt for the authority of God," which unintentional sins and sins of ignorance or mistakes of judgment are not. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 No one will be lost because of sin they were completely ignorant of and had no opportunity to learn about. That last one is fully loaded....
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 To sin or not to sin is our choice. So you just say, "I will not sin"?
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Hebrews 10: 26 shows the difference plainly between willful sins and those which are not willful. Untrue. That chapter is dealing with the sin of the rejection of Christ. It's about the sin of unbelief.
Robert Posted February 11, 2009 Posted February 11, 2009 Originally Posted By: Bravus That's actually a good point. If God has the power to stop us from sins we know about, why not the ones we don't know about too? Because God does not overrule our will. That absolutely has nothing to do with overruling one's will, nothing!!! God could make known all sin without overruling one's will and He has. Anything outside "agape" love is sin, period! Rob
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