Robert Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 I just thought of this: Do you know what put Christ on the cross? Pride, ego, high mindedness, self-importance, etc, etc. How so? Christ persistently told the Pharisees that their righteousness (and they had PhDs in the law) were worthless - filthy rags. You know what happend? It got Him murdered. I like what Jack told me (kidding around, but making a point). Go up to someone in your local supermarket - make sure he is smaller than you so he can't box your ears and tell him, "I've got news for you!" And he'll say, "Yeah, what?" And you reply, "From head to foot there's nothing good in you." You have insulted this man's self-esteem - his pride in his goodness. He might not box you, but he will sue the heck out of you in court. It sounds like I have insulted some folks here? Look at their reactions. Rob
Amelia Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 Quote: I could care less how you feel or what you assume Robert, please pull it back a notch k? Thanks Admin A <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Robert Posted February 2, 2009 Posted February 2, 2009 Quote: I could care less how you feel or what you assume Robert, please pull it back a notch k? Thanks Admin A Done...
Woody Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Okay. I will accept your condemnation in that according to Jack and Ellen ... what we did was sin. ... I happen to disagree. What have I said from day one? Why are you thinking like a legalist? I'm shocked!!!! Here's what I stated a few posts ago: I hope none of you fool yourselves that you are actually keeping the law. Where you have "self" you have sin and "yes", technically speaking, participation in sports is sin in the eyes of God, His law and heaven. There'll be no "ball" in heaven. If you were under law your ball-fest would condemn you. In fact you wouldn't even have to go that far, just being born will do the trick! I have always maintained that we are not under law (right?), but I don't appreciate liberal SDA watering down the law when it comes to their favorite sins. I mean are you a sinner or not? Are you falling short or not? Rob You think it is sin. I don't. It is you that's under the law. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 You think it is sin. I don't. Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. We are all shaped in “iniquity” (bent to self). Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23]. [Jack]
Neil D Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 I just thought of this: Do you know what put Christ on the cross? Pride, ego, high mindedness, self-importance, etc, etc. How so? Christ persistently told the Pharisees that their righteousness (and they had PhDs in the law) were worthless - filthy rags. You know what happend? It got Him murdered. I like what Jack told me (kidding around, but making a point). Go up to someone in your local supermarket - make sure he is smaller than you so he can't box your ears and tell him, "I've got news for you!" And he'll say, "Yeah, what?" And you reply, "From head to foot there's nothing good in you." You have insulted this man's self-esteem - his pride in his goodness. He might not box you, but he will sue the heck out of you in court. It sounds like I have insulted some folks here? Look at their reactions. Rob What? you don't like it when someone tells you that based upon what you have said, and 'quoting' from the writings, that you feel that you are superior, are more self righteous? Why then did you quote EGW ? Oh, sure YOU SAY that it was to show that sports are sinful, but the watching of sports was not sinful. Frankly, it looked more to me like "I am more righteous than you".... And I can quote EGW about how this type of thing NEVER gets condemned by the church, but heaven knows that this type of condemnation is just plain wrong. Nobody sinned here, regardless of how much you insist that we did... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Robert Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Nobody sinned here, regardless of how much you insist that we did... Of course not, Neil you guys are simply
True-believer Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Posted by Robert: Football is about winning - it's about being number one - it's about glory for the team or the important player as in I'm the man! It's also a brutal sport. My comment: To Robert, Football is NOT about winning, NOT about being number one, it's NOT about the glory of the team or even being an important player and it's NOT saying "i'm the man," and it's NOT a brutal sport... Football is a family friendly event and it brings the whole family together and friends as well, it's a time where you can relax and take it easy and just enjoy each other's company. Football is a fun sport--but people like Robert are giving it a very bad name... Please let's enjoy being with family and friends at the Football or whereever and be supportive to one another. Please see the point that I am making--it is a very serious matter!!! Luke 4:19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Kountzer Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 I think I watched maybe one full game all year. I am still a fan, but nothing like I was in the past. Football is a waste of time. I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass
Woody Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Hey dgrimm ... according to Robert .... that just makes you a little less of a sinner ... but still guilty. Personally ... I don't feel that watching the abilities that God has given us ... is a sin. It does not in any way make me think higher of myself because one player or another scored a touchdown. It is just friendly competition. And you will notice that even though my team lost ... I was just thrilled at the good game that it was. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators LynnDel Posted February 3, 2009 Moderators Posted February 3, 2009 I LOVE Superbowl Sunday. It's a great opportunity to fly somewhere and have the whole three seats in your row to yourself. Or you can shop and not have long lines to stand in. It's a day for peace and space on the freeways and in restaurants that do not have TV screens on the walls. Make every Sunday a Superbowl Sunday! LynnDel (who learned 24 hours late that her team did NOT win, but isn't all that upset about it) LD
Robert Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 Football is a family friendly event and it brings the whole family together and friends as well,... and it's NOT a brutal sport... ???? Family day with 0% brutality
Moderators Bravus Posted February 4, 2009 Moderators Posted February 4, 2009 Meh, Aussie Rules and Rugby League players give and take tackles as hard as that *without armour*. What's all that stuff about the feminisation of society? If men can't consensually run into one another at speed, what does that say about our toughness? Better footy roughness than war roughness, IMO. You have your lens - selfishness - that you apply to basically everything in this world, Rob. I get that, but given that you claim *everything* in this world is motivated by selfishness, then it ends up being useless for guiding us as to what we should do or not to. We can't do anything selfless, but we have to do something. Sure, there are many better things to do than watching or playing football, but there are many worse things too. It could be argued that spending hours arguing on internet forums does no more to help those in need than watching football... and is less social. Truth is important
Robert Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 It can be a family day...that is true. Yeah, if they don't play football!
Robert Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 We can't do anything selfless,.... Right, "You can do nothing without ME [Christ]". All we can produce is self-love...even defend self-love, but when we say "iniquity" isn't sin pretty soon everything comes from God, even football.
Moderators Bravus Posted February 4, 2009 Moderators Posted February 4, 2009 But then what do we do? It seems to me that in practice what it comes down to is that what *you* disapprove of gets condemned as coming from self, but what you're fine with gets a pass. But if *everything* comes from selfishness, what must we do? Go and sit alone in a dark room and do nothing? We have to do something, but your scheme doesn't help us to distinguish what is good from what is evil, since it explicitly condemns everything. Truth is important
Robert Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 We have to do something, but your scheme doesn't help us to distinguish what is good from what is evil, since it explicitly condemns everything. The law condemns anything outside "agape". I'm sorry you have difficulty with this principle. If the SDA is going to claim that as a church it keeps the commandments then anything to do with "self" must go. That includes football....
Woody Posted February 4, 2009 Posted February 4, 2009 But then what do we do? It seems to me that in practice what it comes down to is that what *you* disapprove of gets condemned as coming from self, but what you're fine with gets a pass. But if *everything* comes from selfishness, what must we do? Go and sit alone in a dark room and do nothing? We have to do something, but your scheme doesn't help us to distinguish what is good from what is evil, since it explicitly condemns everything. I would love to follow Robert around and see what he does with his day. This would be very instructive. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 I would love to follow Robert around and see what he does with his day. This would be very instructive. Hopefully you would see some agape, but you would also see iniquity. There's self-seeking in my life, period. I'm not blind to this fact, but neither am I blind to the fact that football is born of iniquity. In fact, as Jack states, it's in everything: Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Not to see this is to set your feet in a path of self-righteousness. How so? Either these things are based in "self" or they are not. If not, then you do not need a Savior because you could argue that somethings of this world are not based in "self". Rob
Moderators Bravus Posted February 5, 2009 Moderators Posted February 5, 2009 I get all that, I really do. We need a saviour, because everything we can possibly do, even good things like helping someone else, if we do them of ourselves are rooted in selfish impulses. I understand. But as I said, that then gives us zero guidance about what to do and what not to do. If everything we do, even the good stuff, is tainted by sin and in need of salvation, that's a crucial reminder of our need of a saviour. So once we have a saviour, and have accepted a saviour, all the sin we do in our everyday lives is covered by his grace. But there's still a difference between buying a meal for a homeless person, watching a football game and going out serial killing. They're all tainted by sin in your scheme, but clearly some are much further outside God's will than others. I think everyone here would agree that feeding a homeless person is good, and serial killing is bad. Where we're currently disagreeing is about watching football. And my point is that your (and Jack's) belief system fails to give us any guidance on this question. Truth is important
Robert Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 But there's still a difference between buying a meal for a homeless person, watching a football game and going out serial killing.
Moderators Bravus Posted February 5, 2009 Moderators Posted February 5, 2009 True. But so is feeding the homeless. Why do you come out against one and not the other? I fear that the answer is your personal taste. It's as simple as that you don't like football. Truth is important
Robert Posted February 5, 2009 Posted February 5, 2009 But so is feeding the homeless. Why do you come out against one and not the other? Let's look at the Bible's definition of iniquity: "If I give all I possess to the poor..., but have not [agape], it [the act] is meaningless." Paul goes on to say that "agape...is not self-seeking." Anything outside this belongs to the camp of "self". So if I play football what's the motive? 1] Hurt the other guy, 2] in an attempt to be # 1. All competition, according to the definition of agape, is centered in "self".
Moderators Bravus Posted February 5, 2009 Moderators Posted February 5, 2009 Non-responsive, counsellor Truth is important
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