SDA's Have A New Prophet.

[Dr. Shane]

We have more documentation of Ellen White's life than any other prophet that has ever lived. Not only did she live more recently so less documentation has been lost but the printing press allowed more documentation to be produced. and those around her did an excellent job preserving evidence.

I suspect there have been many prophets throughout time of which we do not know. I suspect there are many things about the Biblical prophets that we do not know.

What we do know is that Ellen White's life was surrounded by supernatural events. Ellen White saw the future and the future she saw came true. Ellen White was given a health message that is still relevant today after huge advances in medical science and nutrition. Ellen White was documented to have not breathed during her visions, some of which lasted 30 minutes or more. On some occations she was observed by doctors and skeptics. Ellen White once carried an 18 pound Bible on outstreched hands during a vision that would make Schwarzenegger wimper and whine. These supernatural events lead any reasonable person to conclude she was either inspired by God or by Satan. She wasn't just a silly woman with odd ideas.

The big test than comes on examination of her writings. Christ said by their fruits we shall know them. Over and over again her writing point us to Christ and the Bible as the only rule of faith. If she was inspired by the devil her writings would point us away from the Bible and give us a perverted understanding of Christ.

So if we conclude she was inspired by God, how do we rectifiy the fact that there are errors in her some her writings? I see her as a human sinner subject to error. I do not believe everything she wrote was divinely inspired. I believe there were times when she sat down and actually wrote what was on her mind even though she had not been shown it in vision. It doesn't bother me too much that Ellen White wasn't right about everything. I kind of beleive that Elijah, Isaiah and Daniel probbally were wrong about some things too.

[Guest]

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DA 462

CHAPTER 27

Modern Revivals

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Error, error, must analyze...

GC 462

[LifeHiscost]

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She said that only after the brethren had arrived at a consensus from their study of the Bible alone was she given a vision which confirmed the accuracy of their conclusions. I think it is important for us to see God's purpose in this. He means for us to establish everything we believe from the Bible alone, and He is really serious about it. We should be too, far more than some of us are.

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Exceptionally astute reasoning, Ron. In my early experience as a Christian my joy in Jesus was unparalleled, at least in my eyes and experience, during which time of euphoria He led me to the Adventist church in answer to my request for guidance. Up to the point of that specific guidance, the Bible and the Bible alone was where I most often received 'new' light.

Gradually it was opened to my eyes the very specific needs of an ignorant new born disciple, yours truly, whereby my attention was diverted to the Spirit of Prophecy,

often referred to as "Ellen White's writings. Initially the depth of my committment to Jesus was highly increased, as I followed the instruction followed from those same writings.

However as time went on the writings began to gradually crowd out the Word as the primary power and motivator for Christian living. To make a long story short, many troubles ensued in personal experience that finally brought me full circle, to placing the Word as the primary place to meet Jesus in prayer and worship, as I recognized a deeper need than just performing correctly.

To this day I have never lost my conviction she (EGW) has been sent as a messenger to help me in the effort to reach all that I might be, as well as others that recognized God to be such a kind Father as to provide extra help in a world gradually losing all its anchors of faith.

Never once have I blamed God or His chosen messengers for the weakness of my own nature in what some might consider to be rebellion of a sort, and I would not even deny that charge, though most of that time the outward appearance remained intact.

However my spiritual balance was recovered only after recognizing Ellen White provided only corroborative counsel, to what God had all the time provided in His Word. To this day I still recognize benefits from her counsel, sometimes not as easy to see in the Word, though those who determine the Word is the only place God speaks to His children will find everything needed for salvation there.

There is no doubt in my mind that every person used by our Father, will have detractors determined to spoil the reputation of those earnest erstwhile preachers of the truth whatever the cost. It makes no less, yea even greater, the reward for those who determine in their heart they will spend their life to the last breath in defense of the faith once delivered to the saints. And that reward will bring joy and glory to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity, especially as our Father's children reign with Him.

[:"red"] "...If I were to glorify Myself (magnify, praise, and honor Myself), I would have no real glory, for My glory would be nothing and worthless. " [/]

John 8:54 AMP

[:"red"] "For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God." [/] John 12:43 KJV

[:"red"] "Will you also annul (set aside and render void) My judgment? Will you condemn Me [your God], that you may [appear] righteous and justified?

Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His?

[if you can do all this, Job, proving yourself of divine might] then will I [God] praise you also [and acknowledge that] your own right hand can save you." [/]

Job 40:8,9,14

And if that is true of one whom God chose to term blameless or perfect, I'm sure it would apply to any past or present servants He chooses to speak through.

Lift Jesus up!!

[David_McQueen]

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So if we conclude she was inspired by God, how do we rectify the fact that there are errors in her some her writings? I see her as a human sinner subject to error. I do not believe everything she wrote was divinely inspired. I believe there were times when she sat down and actually wrote what was on her mind even though she had not been shown it in vision. It doesn't bother me too much that Ellen White wasn't right about everything. I kind of beleive that Elijah, Isaiah and Daniel probbally were wrong about some things too.

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But this is my point Shane. This whole concept of divine inspiration. What we have on the prophets in scripture has never been in question. No one is questioning the issue of error as we know people who done things, Elijah running from Jezebel, etc without consulting God.

I love Steps to Christ, Desire of Ages, Great Controversy, but the issue I have is that the Church see's her As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction..

Who points out where the errors are?

Why would a prophet struggle with righteousness by faith when Christians from day dot grasped this concept?

Which bit of early writings do we include/exclude for authoritative guidance and correction when we are looking for a reflection on salvation?

Why do we continually refer to her writings as the spirit of prophecy?

[there buster]

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3) How do we know what is or is not insipired?

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This is actually the key question. We can't just accept it because it claims to be inspired. After all, the Book of Mormon claims to be inspired.

The answer to this question turns out to be both simple and unsettling.

It is, however, related to the whole issue of the gifts of the Spirit. Inspiration is only one of the manifestations of the Spirit in the church. The question of which book is inspired is essentially the same as which author is inspired, and essentially the same as whther someone has the spiritual gift of prophecy, or discernment, or administration, or anything of the others.

We should begin with the greatest gift of the spirit, the most important one. But I'm guessing that should be on a different thread.

[Ron Lambert]

LifeHisCost, you and others might especially appreciate this statement Ellen G. White made (I believe it was actually made at a General Conference meeting), one that is fascinating because Ellen G. White seemed to be so provoked that she even used a double negative. It was cleaned up in subsequent publications that used the statement. But this is what she originally said:

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Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says, {

Spaulding and Magan Collection

167.2}

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[David_McQueen]

I have that quote on my machine, but thought I would stir a hornets nest if I published it.

Jesus knows

[Dr. Shane]

And we have to ask ourselves if a false prophet would give such counsel. Obviously not. The strongest evidence for Ellen White having the gift of prophecy is that she points the believer to Christ and the Bible as the only rule of faith.

I do not read her writings with the same respect that I read the Holy Bible. However I read her writing with more respect than I read those of Martin Luther, CS Lewis or Mark Finley. She did, after all, talk with angels and recieve divine visions. And while that doesn't make her infallable OR elevate her writings to the level of Scripture, it should cause one to pause a little more from dismissing them.

[Ron Lambert]

Exactly right, Shane. Just because something she wrote might have only reflected her own opinion and did not come directly from God, still her opinion might have been right. Certainly she has a good chance for having an opinion that is wise and profitable for us to take to heart, because she did talk to Jesus and with angels, and received so many visions and testimonies. That being said though, we must not forget that if we obey her at all, we must do what she said in allowing the Bible alone, not anything she wrote, to be the standard of our faith and doctrine, and any interpretation of the Bible and its prophecies must be based on sound exegetical methods of interpreting the Bible by itself, using the definitions it gives for its terms, etc. Nothing else can provide a reliable enough platform for us to stand on when our faith is tried to the uttermost in the time of testing that is coming to the whole world.

[LifeHiscost]

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Who points out where the errors are?

Why would a prophet struggle with righteousness by faith when Christians from day dot grasped this concept?

Which bit of early writings do we include/exclude for authoritative guidance and correction when we are looking for a reflection on salvation?

Why do we continually refer to her writings as the spirit of prophecy?

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[:"red"] "If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority." [/] John 7:17 NKJV

[:"red"] "BELOVED, DO not put faith in every spirit, but prove (test) the spirits to discover whether they proceed from God; for many false prophets have gone forth into the world. " [/] 1 John 4:1 AMP

[:"red"] "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law." [/] Gal 5:22,23

Lit Jesus up!!

[Fran]

Shane;

I will step over to your side. I believe Ellen White was a prophet that had many communications from the Lord. I also agree we need to follow the Bible first, and then add E.G. Whites comments as a magnifier of God's Word. However, this does belong in another thread.

To Everyone;

We are discussing Soo. Did she ever say she was a prophet? Who declared she was a prophet. I haven't seen or heard that. She is a witness of something that happened to her for her benefit, not mine.

No angel came to me and gave those instructions. As far as I have heard, she has been faithful in her task. This is a faithful Servant! She is not here writing books for us, but for her people! She set about doing her tasks one by one. She is not finished as yet. Why are we questioning if she is a prophet? Who on earth said she was?

She never claimed anything we don't already know. Something is going to happen in 2005. The government will try to do something good, but it is bad. Just who does not know that? We are in so many countries we will have trouble protecting ourselves. That is a good thing that is bad.

The Supreme Court is taking to issue the right to display the 10 Commandments in public spaces. People say, but if we allow the 10 Commandments we will have to allow the Islam images...... Our country was founded on the 10 commandments. Why would we allow something contrary to the intent of our forefathers? Who is to say that isn't disaster?

Somewhere sometime this year our government will screw up! What else is new? They do that every year. This year could be a dozy. Then she said, “After that, the Sunday laws will come”. When after that? She was not told. Is that a prophet? I think not. We already knew that, right?

She was given very specific tasks to do. Instead of raking her over the coals and burning her at the stake, we should Praise God that Soo is following her instructions she has proclaimed thus far!

Why did God choose her? He didn't bother to tell me. His ways are bigger than I am. I will not question Soo's authenticity unless she deviates from the instructions she was shown by the angel.

Any errors published thus far, I would attribute to translation of the interviewer.

I have been told she is continuing to translate the books. She hasn't stopped. She has no Laos Bibles. She gave hers away! She reads the world of God in English so she can better learn the language. She has no money to buy Bibles. She accepts that God will provide those in his time.

The Lord has spoken to me in dreams and in a quiet voice. I do not like what he says a lot of the time. In fact some of the things he revealed, I wish I did not know. The lord has led me right to things that I could not have found on a typical search, but it comes up and it is now my knowledge. Am I a prophet? I don't think so. I am a sinner and not perfect to be asked to do something for God, but when it happens, I do my best to do what He asks.

Do I tell people when that happens? No. The instructions are to me and me alone. I do what I am told and then I wait on the Lord.

Soo is human just like me and you. Is she a prophet? We do not have enough information. I believe it would be good for us to praise God for her witness and pray that she is able to finish her instructions. Who know how God will use her.

So far she is bearing fruit unto God. These discussions are irrelevant, because we do not know the whole story yet. I believe we need to pray for her as she continues her work for her people. Pray that God will guide her and lead her to finish the translation of these books.

I have seen nothing that says she is a prophet. I, in fact, do not consider her a prophet. Her story did show me how maybe I had become complacent and thought the Lord would come long after I was dead and gone, but her story made me realize we are closer to the end than I had first believed.

So I guess you could say her message was for me. It did make me take a reality check and made me take a looks at myself and what I stand for. How serious am I? Do I really believe this and that? Or am I sitting on the fence in the valley of decision? Will I stay ready to meet Jesus? Her story did all of this for me. Does that make her a prophet? No.

We do not need to elevate her to such a position. She is not elevating herself. She is a person just like you and me! The only difference is that God sent an angel to talk to her and not me.

So folks; take her message as it was presented. If part of it rings bells for you and your life and relationship with God, get on your knees and praise God!

Now should you hear she is not bearing good fruit then her witness was false and we can say she is of Satan. We just need to wait and see.

[LifeHiscost]

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When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God.

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Thank you for posting that bit of research, Ron. Since at one time I use to read what she wrote voraciously, thinking myself to have read all of her published works of that time,

and knowing my personal opinion now as to what I believe the proper place to use her counsel for me is, it was a good feeling finding affirmation from her own words.

I do not believe the Megan and Spaulding collection were in general public print when I found myself so occupied by her

writings.

Lift Jesus up!!

[Ron Lambert]

The Spaulding and Magan Collection has been available in print for many years, but for a long time it was published by private, independent publishers. Now you can read it online at the Ellen G. White Estates official website. Link: http://www.whiteestate.org/search/search.asp

I found the passage I quoted by doing a full text search looking for the string, "Don't you never"

[Guest]

Another prophet????

You better watch out..you better not cry....

http://www.bible.ca/7-white-inpsired-100-pastors-fired.htm

[Nan]

Soo was at church at Cabramatta in Sydney today - I am told she prayed in Lao and a visitor there gave her some money to aid in the printing of her books. I saw her but was too late (on call) to hear her. I hope we can let her do the work given her without imposing burdens she never requested.

[LifeHiscost]

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So folks; take her message as it was presented. If part of it rings bells for you and your life and relationship with God, get on your knees and praise God!

Now should you hear she is not bearing good fruit then her witness was false and we can say she is of Satan. We just need to wait and see.

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[:"red"] "Then he addressed them: “Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men.

Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.

After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered.

Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail.

But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” " [/]

Acts 5:35-39

Lift Jesus up!!

[Gregory Matthews]

JimBob's link leads one to a listing of 100 fired people (teachers, pastors, administors, and more) who have suppoedly been fired for postions taken in regard to EGW. That list is largely from some very sad events that happened in the 1980s. I am personally aquainted with a number of people on that list. I am knowledgeable about the employment situations of others. Frankly, I could add additional names that are not on that list.

I will NOT attempt to justify all of the decisions that were made. I consider that some of the decisions were not appropriate. In any case they were sad. But, I will say that in many cases the situations were very complex, and NOT made simply for the implied reason. I will also say that the complexity of the situations, and in the full context of the situation, termination from employment were exactly what needed to be done.

Did we make mistakes? Yes, in some cases we did. In other cases we did not.

[Fran]

Nan;

Praise God. She has more books to publish, but she has been waiting for the Lord to help her do it. This is good news. As long as she remains on course with her instructions, I am praying the Lord will make her path clear and straight. I don't want to be a stumbling block to God's plan for her.

Thanks for sharing.

[Fran]

LifeHiscost;

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But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” "

Acts 5:35-39

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Amen!

[LifeHiscost]

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LifeHiscost;

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But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.” "

Acts 5:35-39

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Amen!

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And the funny thing about it (not ha! ha! funny. Maybe pathetic.), when we look to God as being Sovereign in all men's affairs, as I believe Him to be, even if the odd chance were that she weren't purposefully trusting God to be about His business(which I find unlikely), she still might be fitting into God's plan of salvation and the onus might more likely be on some of our own personal malfunction in spiritual matters.

[:"red"] "But I say unto you, Love your enemies..." [/] Matthew 5:44 KJV

[:"red"] "..they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.

Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,

In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness." [/] 2 Thess 2:10-12 Amp

Lift Jesus up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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I will also say that the complexity of the situations, and in the full context of the situation, termination from employment were exactly what needed to be done.

Did we make mistakes? Yes, in some cases we did. In other cases we did not.

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Thank you, Gregory, for that update. I very seldom follow leads to determine another's guilt or innocence re: circumstances in which I'm not immediately involved. Jesus' example in relation to Judas Iscariot, during the most important beginnings of the Christian church, tells me Jesus has not called His children to propagate even truthful accounts of the failures of professed followers.

Since we don't have direct Biblical evidence beyond Jesus' effort to inform Judas of the danger of his position, until the last supper, we can only speculate as to other attempts that might have been made to dissuade Judas of his evil course of action. Knowing Jesus, I can believe many attempts were tried.

There is a way prescribed in the Bible to alter the course of men, by other members of the body of Christ. Most often when learned of, it is not carried out. Not so much because of the dedicated intent of the evildoer, but by the lack of love toward them by the Christian who does not know how much Jesus loves the sinner.

[:"red"] "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Bear (endure, carry) one another's burdens and troublesome moral faults, and in this way fulfill and observe perfectly the law of Christ (the Messiah) and complete what is lacking [in your obedience to it]" [/].Galatians 6:7,2

KJV

[:"red"] "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all."[/] Romans 11:32 NASB

Lift Jesus up!!

[Sammy Lee]

Thanks to all of you , folks! I came late, but I think all your discussions are very interesting and valid! I met Soo last Sabbath (March 5, 2005 at the Cabramatta church in Sydney) I have a few questions about Soo, or perhaps about God. Why would God chose her in particular if there were so many Adventist Laotians as mentioned by somebody above who could have done the job of translating the three books mentioned, better than her, and with less possibilities of mistranslation due to limitation of Soo's knowledge of English? Is it because all those Adventist Laotians have been refusing the Spirit's prompting to do that for their people back in homeland?

My second question is: Why were the other prophets like Daniel and John the beloved disciple of Jesus fell down fainting as a dead man when they were confronted by an angel, while Soo said she was not afraid before even the angel told her not to? Could her life be holier than Daniel and John?

On the other hand, since the Laotian language or script is one of the ancient forms of writing by which the original Buddhist holy writings were recorded,(the other script was the Sanskrit), wouldn't it have a great impact to the Buddhist people of all the Asian and Southeast Asian nations, if through this miracles and supernatural manifestation books revealing the "unknown second God" can be translated into that ancient language and cause the conversion of thousands of them. [this is a quotation from a website about Laotian language: "Lao (or Laotian) in its written form evolved from an ancient Southern Indian script called Pali. However Lao speech, syntaxes, vocabularly, etc. had already existed prior to the introdution of a written script. Buddhism entered the country and became its principle religion hundreds of years ago during the first reign of the first king of Laos. Theravadan Buddhist texts were written in Pali. Pali was one of two of the original languages that Buddhism was written in (the other being Sanskrit).

Moreover, when Buddhism spread throughout Southeast Asia other countries also adopted Pali, or an extract of it, as their language. And so the language developed separately through the years in each different country. In some cases there were deliberate projects to simplify the Pali language for modern and wide spread use, as seen in Thailand in its early history. In Laos, during the late 1940s, the government along with linguistic and literature scholars simplified Lao by enforcing a rule that made all words spoken would/should be written phonetically. Prior to this change, Lao language used a lot of characters, rules and vocabulary from Pali, creating this new rule not only helped simplify Lao language but to, in essence, Laotianize it.

Other countries who have similar writing and language to Lao are Thailand, Cambodia, and Burma, to name a few. While Laotian is under the Sino-Tibetan language group, it doesn't have any true relation to Northern Asia (ie. China). Of course there may be some vocabulary similarities throughout the region but the writing is very separate (for the aforementioned reasons). Lao is under the Tai subgroup of Asian languages (not to be confused with the word Thai)."]

I am still trying to get more information personally from her in order to convince myself the real character of this story. I greatly appreciate your opinions on those points.

But whatever or whoever is behind this, it has made me more confirmed that the coming of the Lord is much closer than we might thought, and has caused me to decide making a better self searching and preparation for that glorious events. I pray that it has done the same result to all of you who have kindly shared your opinions and feelings.

[Sammy Lee]

Continuation of my lengthy posting above:

It would be very helpful if the people who help promote the testimony of Soo make sure there is documentation of her miraculous recovery from her cancers.

An afterthought: If Soo has been able to do the translation of the books into Laotian language in spite of the fact that her English is very poor, it would have added more convincing proof that this is really inspired by the same power manifested during the day of Pentecost when the disciples were suddenly enabled to speak in foreign languages, wouldn't it?

There was another wonderful story of God's intervention in the conversion of heathen tribe that I know. It happened quite a few years ago in Central Sulawesi among the Daah tree dwelling tribe. The chief of the tribe was given a dream about the soon coming of Jesus and he was instructed to keep practically all the doctrines of Seventh-day Adventism. He was also told that one day God will send His minister to his isolated village and at that time he must be baptized. That happened twenty five years later.

A group of Seventhday Adventists did really came to that village and performed a baptismal ceremony on a creek near that village. The chief approached them and inquired about who they were and what they believed. After being told about our doctrines, the chief told them that he and his family had been practising all those beliefs for the last twenty five years. He and his family were baptized and today we have a membership of around 500 strong in that isolated place. For verification of this story you can send an email either to the Central Sulawesi Mission of SDA, or the East Indonesia Union Mission Office in Manado, Indonesia. Wouldn't it be more convincing if something like that happened to Soo, rather than just a repetition of the question: "Do you love Jesus?" to the baptizing pastor?

This is just a personal pondering. I am not trying to limit the power of God or question His wisdom!

God bless us all and make us better prepared for His soon coming regardless of what we have discussed so far.

[Gregory Matthews]

RE: " . . .documentation of her miraculous recovery from her cancers."

How would you document a miraculous recovery? Cancers commonly go into remission.

[Nan]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

RE: " . . .documentation of her miraculous recovery from her cancers."

How would you document a miraculous recovery? Cancers commonly go into remission.

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Sammy wrote this overnight and did not discuss it with me, but I think it was prompted by the statement somewhere that Soo did not mention the cancer in the two years she was at the health institute. In that sense the first necessity would be to establish the diagnosis.

A miraculous recovery could be described as the rapid disappearance of proven cancer without medical intervention - I am talking days. Whether this happened to Soo I do not know. And that the "cure" is permanent.

[sammy is my husband - just for the record <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ]