Disfellowshipped

[John317]

The website stating that about Prince is notorious for being wrong about famous SDA members and SDA connections: http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_sda.html

Yes, I agree. It's right about some, such as Archie Moore, Little Richard. But it is wrong about many others.

[Guest]

I heard from a guy who went to one of his shows, that he asked anyone who was SDA to leave.

[Dr. Shane]

There are many many people whom I could name who are living together without benefit of marriage. The Social Security and pension laws make it almost necessary for retired people, widows especially, who would lose their pensions if they remarried.

So they are not only guilty of fornication but of defrauding the government as well? I agree that we need to be slow and gentle when disfellowshipping but open sin needs to be addressed not only for the sake of the church but even more so for the sake of the sinner.

[John317]

Prince was raised in a SDA family.

So was Richard Wright, an important American writer. He lived for about 5 years with a grandmother who was SDA. Unfortunately it did not agree with him. He wrote about his experience with his Grandmother in his book, Black Boy (1945).

From the wikipedia--

Quote:

Wright, the grandson of former slaves, was born on the Rucker plantation in Roxie, Mississippi, in Franklin County, just outside of Natchez.

His family soon moved to Memphis, Tennessee. While in Memphis, his father Nathaniel, a former sharecropper, abandoned the family because of a hard time finding a job. His mother, a schoolteacher, had to support herself and her children. In 1914 Ella Wright became ill, and the two brothers were sent to Settlement House, a Methodist orphanage. The mother then moved with her children to Jackson, Mississippi, to live with relatives. In 1916, Wright, his brother, and their mother returned to Mississippi, moving in with Margaret Wilson, Wright’s grandmother.

Later, the family moved in with Wright’s aunt and uncle in Elaine, Arkansas, but left after whites murdered Wright’s uncle Silas Hoskins in 1916. The family fled to West Helena, Arkansas, where they lived in fear in rented rooms for several weeks. Mrs. Wright took the boys to Jackson, Mississippi, for several months in 1917, but they returned to West Helena by the winter of 1918. Further family disintegration occurred after Mrs. Wright suffered a stroke in 1919. Wright reluctantly chose to live with Uncle Clark and Aunt Jody in Greenwood, Mississippi, where he could be near his mother, but restrictions placed on him by his aunt and uncle made him an emotional wreck. On the verge of a nervous breakdown, he was permitted to return to Jackson, where he lived with Grandmother Wilson from early 1920 until late 1925. Wright felt stifled by his aunt and his maternal grandmother, who tried to force him to pray that he might find God. He later threatened to leave home because Grandmother Wilson refused to permit him to work on Saturdays, the Adventist Sabbath. Early strife with his aunt and grandmother left him with a permanent, uncompromising hostility toward religious solutions to everyday problems....

Wright's semi-autobiographical Black Boy (1945) described his early life from Roxie through his move to Chicago, his clashes with his Seventh-day Adventist family, his troubles with white employers and social isolation.

During the 1930s, Wright would go on to become a member of the communist party, which is militantly atheistic. After he became disillusioned with the party and left it, he wrote books that had a great influence on both Malcolm X, James Baldwin (Go Tell It On the Mountain, Another Country, The Fire Next Time), and Ralph Ellison (Invisible Man)

Think what this great, talented man could have done for God if he had accepted Christ and become a Seventh-day Adventist. Unfortunately his grandmother and aunt didn't know how to deal with him, and they tended to be legalistic in their approach to spiritual things.

[John317]

I agree that we need to be slow and gentle when disfellowshipping but open sin needs to be addressed not only for the sake of the church but even more so for the sake of the sinner.

I agree. People can go on for years thinking they are not doing anything so bad because no one says anything. But if they are made to look closely at what they are doing, they're more likely to understand its seriousness and do something about it.

[bonnie]

Quote:

So they are not only guilty of fornication but of defrauding the government as well?

There is no defrauding of the government. Social Security does not care if two people live together. Two men,two women,man and woman.It becomes a factor only if they should marry.

Check with you local SS office

[Dr. Shane]

I have heard these couples claim that "in the eyes of God" they are married. Which would also mean "in the eyes of God" they are defrauding the government. They are not legally married and thus they are not illegally defrauding the government. They can't have their cake and eat it too. They either admit they are sinning against God or admit they are stealing from Social Security. Certainly this group of people needs some moral guidance from the church.

[bonnie]

I have heard these couples claim that "in the eyes of God" they are married. Which would also mean "in the eyes of God" they are defrauding the government. They are not legally married and thus they are not illegally defrauding the government. They can't have their cake and eat it too. They either admit they are sinning against God or admit they are stealing from Social Security. Certainly this group of people needs some moral guidance from the church.

Yup,I am sure the Social Security office would agree with you. They don't care. Sure they can.Their SS checks come every month,they have companionship and seems only Shane cares.

Probably should take care of that if you know a elderly couple living in sin

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Aubrey

I am a heathen.

Me too Aubrey. And many would be clapping their hands and would just jump at the idea of disfellowshipping me.

In my eyes ... we are ALL equal.

Boasting about how bad we are is as bad as boasting about how good we are.

G

[Woody]

All sin and fall short of the glory of God. In the eyes of the law ... we are ALL heathens.

[olger]

I was disfellowshipped once, for living with a woman in open sin. I wasn't attending church at the time but my name was on the books. My dad was on the board at the time, and I found out later that he cried when he had to vote to take my name off the books.

I wasn't bitter. I knew what I was doing was not exceptable to the church.

Good for you, and them and WELCOME back.

G

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I was disfellowshipped once, for living with a woman in open sin. I wasn't attending church at the time but my name was on the books. My dad was on the board at the time, and I found out later that he cried when he had to vote to take my name off the books.

I wasn't bitter. I knew what I was doing was not exceptable to the church.

I think we should be very very slow in disfellowshipping a member -- unless after much visitation by the pastor, prayer and Bible study, that member ASKS to be removed from church membership. There are many many people whom I could name who are living together without benefit of marriage. The Social Security and pension laws make it almost necessary for retired people, widows especially, who would lose their pensions if they remarried. I do not feel they are "living in open sin" -- after all, who of us even knows what they do together in private?

I don't fault anyone for making that choice, at least when they are elderly and retired. And far be it from me to vote them out of church membership.

The church is a hospital for sinners -- not a museum for saints.

I kindly disagree.

The Bible says to abstain from every appearance of evil. Taking matters into our own hands because of filthy lucre gets in the way of the Lord working in our behalf. See Saul & Samuel as exhibit 1.

As to the jab at saints, the Bible is a lot more friendly towards them than you may realize. I have edited several Bible verses to make them more palatable (editorial changes mine).

"And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of sinners."

"Here is the patience of the sinners: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

"And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the sinners, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his sinners."

"Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all sinners;"

"When he shall come to be glorified in his sinners, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

"To the sinners and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh sinners"

"For the perfecting of the sinners, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ"

"Now concerning the collection for the sinners, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye."

Disclaimer - I don't like the way these verses sound now. You can change them back to the way God intended by inserting the word saints over the word sinners.

blessings,

the ger

[Woody]

I am the chief of sinners.

[Woody]

Saved by Grace. Praise God.

[Dr. Shane]

Yup,I am sure the Social Security office would agree with you. They don't care.

I don't think it is that the Social Security office doesn't care. A widow is able to collect half of her husband's Social Security because she no longer has her husband to provide for her. When she remarries she now has a husband to provide for her. If they just live in sin together then the widow can continue to collect her part of her former husband's Social Security while receiving the benefits of her live-in boyfriend's Social Security.

My mother lives alone and lives off from her Social Security. She lives in government housing. I don't know how much her Social Security is but do not believe she ever earned more than $20K/year while working.

A couple could go to Mexico and have a church wedding but not have a civil marriage if they want to be married in the church but not legally married. However since we are to obey the civil authorities, I don't think that would really be honest.

[olger]

Sorry to hear that. Here's the verse the way it reads.

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

restin peace,

g

[John317]

I am the chief of sinners.

You mean formerly or currently?

The problem is when people go on being the chief of sinners. That is not according to God's plan for us. God wants to save us from our sins, not leave us in our filth. He loves us too much to do that. He wants to clean us up, and He will do it if we will cooperate with Him.

Have you noticed that the Bible always distinguishes between saints and sinners when it comes to describing those whom Christ will save at His Second Coming? Never does the Bible say Christ is coming to save sinners when He returns for His church. He comes for former sinners, people who've washed their robes of character in the blood of the Lamb, and have dressed themselves in white linen, the righteous deeds of the saints. They will be overcomers, not current or continuing violators of God's commandments. (Compare Rev. 19: 7,8; 3: 5, 12, 21; Hebrews 9: 28; Romans 2: 5-11.)

[Woody]

Quote:

God wants to save us from our sins

He has certainly saved me. That is for sure. By His blood ... not my works ... I am now saved.

[Woody]

And he has saved me despite my future sins. For I will sin till the day I die. But because I am In Him and seek His forgiveness ... I AM SAVED.

[John317]

I am waiting for the day when I will hear you say, "I will obey God's commandments."

Think: where in the Bible does anyone serving God say, "I WILL sin till the day I die"?

1 John 2: 1 says, "IF anyone sin..." not "when anyone sin..." There's a big difference.

You have said before many times that you recognize that sin is a choice. So why would anyone in union with Christ continue to choose to commit sin till the day they die? Why not choose righteousness and God's will every time there's a choice to be made?

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Ever see this pic by Gordon Parks?

Who is HE disfellowshipping?

That reminds me-- some have said that Malcolm X was once SDA but I have never seen any evidence of it. If he ever was, it's very possible he was disfellowshipped because his lifestyle was openly contrary to the SDA church, at least during the time before his conversion to Islam.

His autobiography indicates that his mother or grandmother was an SDA. That's a cool image that you posted. There's something about B&W that's incredibly powerful.

[John317]

And he has saved me despite my future sins. For I will sin till the day I die. But because I am In Him and seek His forgiveness ... I AM SAVED.

Let's put that idea in the context of disfellowship since that's the subject of the thread.

Let's say that I am living in sin-- that is, suppose I am living openly in a sexual relationship with someone who's married to another person.

The church leaders come to me and they talk to me about it and pray with me. They urge me to leave the relationship. I tell them I won't do it and that I choose to continue living the same way. I won't leave the relationship. In fact, I tell them that God has forgiven me these sins and that I am saved because I am in Him and seek His forgiveness.

Should the church accept what I say and vote not to disfellowship me on the basis of my assurance that I am saved?

[lazarus]

Administering church discipline in one of the most sobering parts of what I do as a Pastor. I don't like it but it's necessary. It's Biblical and believe it or not, it is part of the work of salvation.

"As many as I love I rebuke and chasten"

Over the years the church has made mistakes in disciplining members but that doesn't mean that we should never discipline we just need to learn how to do it better.

[Dr. Shane]

Very true, Lazarus.

[John317]

Wish we could know more about that. Like how it may have influenced him, if at all. I wonder if his mother became SDA after he was an older boy or maybe a young man.

I agree about B&W. For me a really good black and white is superior to a color picture. You can get sucked just into the color and not really see the subject for itself. I think b&w sort of concentrates your focus on the subject in a way that color often doesn't. In Parks' picture of Malcolm X, the thing that makes it effective is the natural lighting. It was made at a meeting where he was speaking after he returned from his pilgrimage to Africa. Of course he was a changed man. It wasn't very long before he was assassinated. He'd told Parks that he was aware he would probably be killed.