Disfellowshipped

[John317]

Again ... you are getting off topic. That is not what we are addressing here. NO one is questioning that there are degrees of sin. But what you fail to grasp is that ANY sin of ANY degree will keep you out of Heaven. An attempt to belittle certain sins and claim that you don't have to get victory over them

I have never taught any of the above. On the contrary. What sins have I attempted to belittle? Please quote and give post#.

Unconfessed and unrepented and unforgiven sins can keep us out of heaven, certainly. But sins that have been sincerely repented of and confessed, and thus covered by Christ's blood, will not keep anyone out of heaven. This is an important distinction.

[Woody]

IT does no good to tell you about your lies. You just ignore what I say and continue to spread the gossip. And I for one am sick of it. But everything you said in that post is false. You continue to misrepresent me in an attempt to smear my name. This is not the first time you have been talked to about this. So ... I am now reporting it.

[John317]

What "lies" and what "gossip"? Name it and show the evidence please. Quote and give the post#.

If you want to continue this kind of exchange, please do it by PM, not on the public threads. Thanks.

[Woody]

I'm not going to play your little game. It is up to you to prove your lies about me. Give ME the post numbers and in fact post them here to back up your claims about me.

You know ... it would just be simplier to quote me from the start rather than putting words in my mouth that I never said. OR ... you could always ask. Instead you have chosen to break the rule established for this forum to make it a pleasant place to come. What a shame.

[John317]

Redwood, I've told you that if you want to carry on a private argument to do it by PM.

That is also one of the rules.

I have not broken any rules here. If I have, you know what you can do-- use the appeal process.

[Woody]

"The Lord looks upon such ones with great displeasure. His counsel to us is: 'It is the duty of each one to do all in his power to put down strife for the supremacy. It grieves the Lord to see the unwise, injudicious encouragement given to those who are so ready to make unfavorable reports concerning the work of others. Many stand by as criticizers, ready to make a man an offender for a word. Unless they put on the robe of Christ's righteousness, they will be rejected by God. Let them study carefully the parable of the man who came to the wedding supper not having on the garment provided for the guests. Let them remember that, while they are watching and criticizing others, they are neglecting to put on the robe of Christ's righteousness.'" PAMPHLETS/PH151 - Selections from the Testimonies for the Church For the Study of Those Attending the General Conference in Oakland, Ca., March 27, 1903, pp. 47, 48.

[LifeHiscost]

Legalism is a cancer.

As is unrighteousness.

"...then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity (unrighteousness YLT).’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out."Luke 13:26-28 NKJV parenthesis mine LHC

The world's ills are not a result of legalism. They are a result of the lawless.

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:23 NKJV

Regards!

[Woody]

I guess I would have to agree with you. For being a legalist is certainly a form of unrighteousness.

[John317]

Ah, man...trying the 'ol misdirection again! Stay focused...off topic!!

This whole discussion about the nature of sin is tied directly to the Bible doctrines regarding the Investigative Judgment and the Experience of Salvation. If we understand and accept those doctrines, we won't believe that no one can obey the commandments of God or that we cannot overcome the sins that God shows us in our lives. Understanding these teachings helps us to have a right estimation of the danger of holding onto our sins instead of giving them over to Jesus and allowing Him to write His law on our hearts and minds.

[John317]

Trying to excuse sin is not part of the 28 Fundamentals. Can you show me where it is?

But as I've repeatedly said, I am not attempting to excuse sin. On the contrary. I am saying that we need to repent and confess all sin to Christ and use His power to resist and overcome them as soon as God points them out to us. I've said this hundreds of times over the last 5 years.

Please show where I have ever "excused sin." Quote and give the post#. I deny that I have ever excused sin in any way and at any time on Adventist Forum.

The 28 Fundamentals teach that people do keep God's commandments and that their lives show that they are worthy of being in the first resurrection. They also teach that those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit are not dominated by sin but overcome sin by the grace and power of God. Ellen White speaks over and over again about the importance of using Christ's power to separate sin from us. This is all part of the 28 FB.

[LifeHiscost]

I do not care if my name is on some church membership book...That book isn't going to save me....

What about this book?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books." Revelation 20:12 NKJV

But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.Rev 21:27

NKJV

Regards!

[John317]

For being a legalist is certainly a form of unrighteousness.

I agree that "legalism" is a form of unrighteousness. In fact, it is probably the worst form of sin.

But what is your definition and understanding of "legalism"?

The biblical definition of it is when people believe that they can earn God's favor or get into right relationship with God through their own human efforts, apart from the Holy Spirit.

Those are "works of law" as contrasted with "works of faith."

Notice the beautiful passages & sure promises of God below:

Quote:

The Book of Life

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will

not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name

before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:5.

If we would be overcomers, we must search our hearts to be sure that we are

not cherishing anything that is offensive to God. If we are, we cannot wear

the white raiment that is here promised. If we would stand before God in the

white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints, we must now do the

work of overcoming.

Christ says of the overcomer, "I will not blot out his name out of the book

of life." The names of all those who have once given themselves to God are

written in the book of life, and their characters are now passing in review

before him. Angels of God are weighing moral worth. They are watching the

development of character in those now living, to see if their names can be

retained in the book of life. A probation is granted us in which to wash our

robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. Who is

doing this work? Who is separating from himself sin and selfishness? "Ye are

dead," says the apostle Paul of the true followers of Christ, "and your life

is hid with Christ in God." When we are alive to God, we are dead to self.

May God help us to die to self. Whose names will not be blotted out of the

book of life? Only the names of those who have loved God with all the powers

of their being, and their neighbors as themselves.

There is a great work to be done for many of us. Our minds and characters

must become as the mind and character of Christ. Selfishness is inwrought in

our very being. It has come to us as an inheritance, and has been cherished

by many as a precious treasure. No special work for God can be accomplished

until self and selfishness are overcome. To many everything connected with

themselves is of great importance. Self is a center, around which everything

seems to revolve. Were Christ on the earth now, He would say to such,

"Launch out into the deep." Be not so self-caring. There are thousands whose

lives are just as precious as yours. Then why do you wrap your coat about

you, and hug the shore? Awake to duty and to usefulness! If you will launch

out into the deep and let down your nets, the Master will gather in the

fishes, and you will see of the mighty working of God (Historical Sketches,

pp. 138, 139).

When our hearts are all aglow with love for Jesus and the souls for whom He

died, success will attend our labors. . . . Let each one inquire, . . . Can

I not be the means of saving some soul in the kingdom of God? We want the

deep movings of the Spirit of God in our hearts, that we may not only be

able to secure for ourselves the white raiment, but that we may so influence

others that their names may be entered in the book of life, never to be

blotted out (ibid., p. 140).

>From Lift Him Up - Page 327

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

BTW ... I don't really feel this topic is appropriate for Townhall. It should have been placed under What Seventh day Adventist believe ... IMHO

I didn't know you had a humble opinion.

I guess I have to accept that humble

opinion.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

The idea that we will continue to choose to sin after we have accepted Jesus as our Savior has been put forth repeatedly in this thread.

As is also stated that the "elderly" are subject to STDs, therefor licentious.

Blessings!

[John317]

I dislike the focus that is found on this forum of defining sin

How do you define sin?

Quote:

or how we can't claim full salvation or can't save 'I am saved', etc., etc.

When God justified us, or brings us into right relationship with Himself, He sees us as if we had never sinned. He loves us and treats us as He loves and treats His own dear Son. God accounts us as righteous as Christ, and indeed, we receive credit for every good word and every good work of Christ.

But never forget that we have "the life" only so long as we have the Son. 1 John 5: 12. This is the eternal life that God has given to us. It is directly connected to our relationship with Christ. It is a quality of life, a gift-- but a gift that can be taken away. How? By our own choices.

The Bible shows that we are "being saved." It is a process rather than an accomplished fact. We will be ultimately and completely saved when Christ returns for us and takes us home with Him.

For sure, Christ shed his blood for us on the cross and He never needs to shed any more blood for anyone.

We can certainly claim all of God's promises as long as we are fulfilling the conditions. Salvation is not unconditional. God's love is unconditional but salvation is not.

God wants us to be certain of His salvation but not presumptuous. Presumption occurs when people think they are saved even as they are practicing deliberate and willful sin. They expect to keep their favorite sins and have heaven too.

Notice that at no time in the NT does anyone say, "I am saved." The emphasis is always "You will be saved" if you fulfill certain conditions. We are on probation. We do not need to do anything before coming to Christ for forgiveness, but there is a work to be done before we are given the gift of immortality. (See 2 Peter 1: 1-11.) The Bible teaches that Christ is the Savior of all those who obey Him. And again, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Him. God will not give immortality to anyone who is willfully practicing sin. (Heb. 9: 28; Rev. 22: 14, 15.) To do so would be to immortalize sin. Gen. 3: 22-24 shows that God won't do that. He is too wise and too loving.

Question: Is there such a thing as "false assurance"? What is the difference between it and genuine assurance? How can we tell if we have the one or the other?

Should a person knowingly and stubbornly living in sin have assurance of salvation? Wouldn't you agree that this would be false assurance?

Quote:

Focusing on Christ and what He has accomplished is simply not controversial enough to achieve a long discourse.

Yes, we certainly should focus on Christ. Also on what He accomplished at the cross and what He is doing as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary right now. But focussing on Christ does not mean that we lose all consciousness of our sins or of the sins that occur in the church. We need to be praying for the church. But how can we know what to pray for if we don't know what is going on in the church? Ellen White writes about those who do not care about the sins of the church or of themselves, and then she writes that God notices those who are sighing and crying and praying about the sins in the church. If we are not doing this, do we really care about God and about the people in His church?

Quote:

There seems to be a real reluctance to accept the assurance of Christ death for our sins with out the continuing defining of what a person must do to prove their acceptance.

What does the Bible teach is the foundation of our assurance of salvation? Check out: John 14: 21; 15: 10; 1 John 2: 3, 5, 6; 3: 9, 10, 14, 18-22; Romans 8: 6, 13, 14, 16.

Quote:

No outward adherence or intellectual knowledge or correctness of understanding will save anyone. Jewish religious leaders tried that and look what Christ had to say about them. Unless we return to the Bible and its demonstration of Gods desire for a relationship with us, we might as well climb up Mt Everest on a treadmill....climb all you want, just not going anywhere!

It's true that we're not saved by "knowledge." We're not Gnostics. But on the other hand, "the Holy Scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 3: 15). A lack of knowledge or the wrong knowledge can cause us to lose salvation. We're not saved by good works but Jesus made it plain that no one will be saved without them. See Luke 10: 25-37; Matt. 25: 31-46.

Yes, God does desire a relationship with us. But remember: "You be holy, for I am holy." And: "Your sins have separated you from God." The Bible says that if we hold on to sin in our lives, God will not hear us.

Again, I believe you need to study the Investigative Judgment. There are many things in it that address and answer your questions.

[LifeHiscost]

Who has stopped sinning?

I use to lust after my neighbor's wife. I no longer do that, nor am I finding it a temptation in my life. I attribute that to the power of Jesus in my life. Does that count as having stopped sinning there?

I use to pilfer (steal) when walking through a store. I've stopped, since accepting Jesus as Lord of my life. Is that considered stopping the sinning there?

I've stopped robbing God, in tithes and offerings. Is that considered as stopping sin there? You tell me.

Since God asks us to quite practicing sinning (making effort to get better at it), does no longer wishing anyone to be dead make me less than a murderer because I no longer sin there, does that qualify as stopping sinning?

Have I been totally redeemed from sinning? Obviously, no! Have I been redeemed spiritually. Obviously yes, through the cleansing blood of Jesus, Have I stopped sinning? It depends upon where one might point.

The ones who find the greatest joy in finding sin in the lives of others, have the most their ashamed of in their own experience, of which they wish to cover up with the failures of others.

"Love...takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong]....is ever ready to believe the best of every person."

1 Corinthians 13:5,7 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

Blessings!

[John317]

Again ... you are getting off topic. That is not what we are addressing here. NO one is questioning that there are degrees of sin.

OK, I think that's wonderful. It seemed to me you were saying all sin is the same.

Quote:

But what you fail to grasp is that ANY sin of ANY degree will keep you out of Heaven.

It's true that any sin that we cherish and do not sincerely repent of and confess and overcome will keep us out of heaven. This is very true. But it's important to understand that we won't be kept out of heaven by just any sin-- we will be kept out of heaven by sin that we do not sincerely repent of.

Quote:

An attempt to belittle certain sins and claim that you don't have to get victory over them ... is a teaching of the Devil. But we were told in the end days that this type of preaching would come. However ... we are to reject this heresy.

I have never belittled certain sins or claimed that we don't have to get the victory over them. On the contrary, this is precisely what you have been arguing for a long time. You have said that even if you don't overcome, it doesn't matter because Christ died in order so that you don't need to overcome. You have said that we are saved by the blood of Christ and not by what we do. You've said that everyone is holy and that everyone who is justified is also sanctified-- that it's impossible to have one without the other. But the Bible speaks of sanctification in two ways: we are set apart for God's service the moment we are justified, and then we are forever afterward involved in a process of being made holy, or separating sin from ourselves. This is sanctification and is identical to the work by the Holy Spirit in our lives of gaining the victory over sins in our lives.

Do you now teach that you need to get the victory over all sins in your life? I believe the same thing, and it is certainly what Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy teach. And you are right that the devil's message is that we do not need to gain the victory over every sin. He tells us that we can be saved even while we cherish them and practice them.

Quote:

Since the laws of nature are the laws of God, it is plainly our duty to give these laws careful study. We should study their requirements in regard to our own bodies, and conform to them. Ignorance in these things is sin. {CD 18.2}

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}

I completely agree. Good quotes.

But what happens to those who have those advantages so they could withstand the temptations but they refuse to do so?

Quote:

Please ... it hurts my ears when I read of an attempt to limit God.

Who is doing this? If you mean that you think I am attempting to limit God, please quote my words that show this is what I have been doing. On the contrary, I am saying that God has power to keep us from sinning if we will only accept and use His power. It's a choice and He empowers us to obey Him. That's the freedom we have in the gospel.

[John317]

Excellent post, LifeHiscost. Very well put. :-)

[LifeHiscost]

The Bible shows clearly that sinning is a choice and that we can't be forced to sin. Paul said, "Should we go on sinning because we are not under law but under grace? Of course not. Perish the thought." Speaking through the Apostle, the Holy Spirit is telling us that by God's grace we can choose not to sin against God. Otherwise the passage makes no sense. The Holy Spirit in the life of the believer empowers us to resist every temptation that we face. That's a major part of the Good News of the gospel.

God won't force us to be good, and without Jesus' presence, satan

won't allow us to be good. Therefor, it would seem the wise choice would be willful submission to Jesus, our choice.

"As it is written:

“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;

We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."Romans 8:36-39 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

the Devil can't force us to sin. Sin, as you say, is a choice, not nature. That's an important point.

As far a I know, the Bible does not see sin as a choice to the one who does not see Jesus as a Deliverer.

"They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”"John 8:33 NKJV

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God."Romans 8:21 KJV

Bondage is slavery, with no choice of one's own. Without Jesus, one has no choice.

Blessings!

[John317]

As far a I know, the Bible does not see sin as a choice to the one who does not see Jesus as a Deliverer.

....Bondage is slavery, with no choice of one's own. Without Jesus, one has no choice.

Blessings!

Wow-- excellent point and you made it so succinctly.

Yes, before Jesus enters into our life, we're captives and hopeless slaves of our evil desires, just like Paul says in Romans 1: 28-32.

[LifeHiscost]

Of course sin is sin. No one is saying anything different. You seem to have a hard time grasping these concepts. All sin is sin but both the Bible and Ellen White say that God does not view all sins exactly alike.

Again, David sinned before he murdered Uriah but God only punished him severely for deliberate, willful sins of murdering Uriah and numbering the people. Clearly God made a distinction. Ellen White also writes about sins of defiance and sins of ignorance. See the Sabbath School lessons for last week.

Seems to me, the one word "cherished", would correctly identify the sin that would bar us from the heavenly courts, unless and until it was willingly released to Jesus. Which word would also identify that which grieves away the Holy Spirit.

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice." Ephesians 4:29-31 NKJV

"Both Balaam and Judas had received great light and enjoyed special privileges, but a single cherished sin poisoned the entire character and caused their destruction. . . {CC 114.4}"

" One cherished sin will, little by little, debase the character, bringing all its nobler powers into subjection to the evil desire. " (Ps. 17: 5).{CC 114.5}" Underlined mine LHC

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

As far a I know, the Bible does not see sin as a choice to the one who does not see Jesus as a Deliverer.

....Bondage is slavery, with no choice of one's own. Without Jesus, one has no choice.

Blessings!

Wow-- excellent point and you made it so succinctly.

Yes, before Jesus enters into our life, we're captives and hopeless slaves of our evil desires, just like Paul says in Romans 1: 28-32.

Thank you for your acknowledgments, John317. Praise be to God. And I find no difficulty with your logic, especially since it allows for the righteousness of Christ to permit the one who falls short of the glory of God, to enter into the kingdom without the baggage of sin polluting the disciple's character.

What we do not want, Jesus has full capacity to expunge from our lives. The timing, we can be sure, will be as rapid as our willingness to submit to His power. That point of time will be reflected in the sorrow some of us must undergo before we see the light as witnessed by the thief on the cross.

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:2 NKJV

" Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."James 4:7 NKJV

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane Said:

Quote:

Common law marriage laws are state laws and not recognized by Social Security. If a couple lives together for 40 years and the husband dies, the wife does not have a claim to part of his Social Security check because they were never legally married. If common law marriages were recognized by Social Security than the couple living in sin so the widow could still draw her ex-husbands pension would be guilty of fraud.

Shane is simply wrong in his statement about Social Security. A cursory examination of the official government website will clearly show that although the requirements are high,the Social Security Administration does recognize common-law marrilage.

One definative quote from that website is the following:

Quote:

The facts revealed that at the time R and W began living together, R's mother had recorded in her family Bible an entry showing 1943 as the date of the marriage. It was further shown that R paid W's medical and hospitalization costs, they entered into loan contracts and chattel mortgages together, and entered into a lease of an apartment in their joint names. They had on August 19, 1953, executed mutual wills in which each named the other as spouse and devise. The couple had read a newspaper account of the legality of common law marriages in Ohio and believed that they validly married. W explained that the failure to effect a ceremonial marriage prior to February 11, 1969, was due to lack of money and religious differences.

The facts establish that R and W met the common law marriage requirements under Ohio law. The parties intended to be married when they assumed their cohabitative relationship; there was no impediment to their marriage; they held themselves out as man and wife for over 25 years and the people in the community in which they live, including their relatives, believed that they were married. They transacted business in their joint names, executed leases, contracts, and otherwise conducted themselves as a married couple in accordance with their belief that a valid common law marriage existed. This is further evidenced by the execution of mutual wills designating each party as spouse and devisee of the other. The subsequent ceremonial marriage would not be a bar to a valid common law marriage.

Accordingly, it is held that W, having established a valid common law marriage under Ohio law, was the lawful wife and subsequently the widow of R. Therefore, all other requirements have been met, W is entitled to benefits on R's account.

[Gregory Matthews]

My comment here is made after reading 10 of the pages posted here. At this point I will make a few comments:

1) To "EXIT" a persom from church membershiop, in my opinion, should generally be done only when there is an established decision by the person to leave the body of Christ. While I might make a rare exception, I would not terminate a person's membership on the basis of one sin.

2) I would never terminate the membership of a person simply becaue she was pregnant and not married.

3) While I appreciate very much the contributions that Tom W. makes to this forum, I do not agree with his post on the Biblical basis of marriage. But, this is not the time for me to debate him on that issue.

4) As a SDA pastor I once instituted the practice in a church I pastored that we would not disfellowshlip a person if there was even one negative vote. It had to be a total vote in favor of terminating their membership. That practive worked very well. Yes, we did disfellowship, but not often.

5) In an article published in the REVIEW a few years ago, it was stated that the pastors in another country admitted into membership people who were living together, sexually involved and not married.

Enough said for now.