Disfellowshipped

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

The celebration of iniquity IS a heathen concept' date=' so maybe...

regards,

G [/quote']

Yes, I am a heathen saved by Grace.

Here is where you are confused. You cannot be an unbeliever & a believer at the same time. You cannot be a "heathen" and a member of Christ's bride simultaneously. It's one or the other in the Bible. There is no difference between land & sea for you.

No one here is campaigning for righteousness by works, so we can set that aside. But when I see a professed believer campaiging for a life in sin instead of from sin (Matthew 1:21) somebody ought to stand up and say "Hey fellow. It ain't that way in the Bible."

Hard line postmodernists though, like Brian McClaren, Doug Pagitt etc.. are perfectly comfortable with such rejections of the Law of Non-contradiction.

Let’s be careful. Today’s liberals were conservatives yesterday. We have this break-off of the sons & daughters of people who rejected liberalism, who are now looking feverishly for new ways, a new form. And here is where it gets serious. If we get the truth question wrong, we are going to be aberrant in every dimension of our life, whether we attend a church or not.

To quote Dr. Vance Havner "When the tide is low, every shrimp has it's own puddle."

oG

[Woody]

Quote:

It is also not safe to assume that elderly people are not sexually active. The CDC reports a great concern about STDs among the elderly. AIDS is a big problem among the elderly.

Is it safe to assume anything about anyone? How would you like it if someone assumed that about you and it wasn't the case, especially if it lead them to criticise you?

Yes. Thank you Gail. This is exactly the issue.

[Woody]

Quote:

I didn't know you had a humble opinion

This is just the problem here. Far to much 'assuming' and far to little finding out the truth and giving the person the benefit of the doubt.

[Woody]

Well said Kevin. But the vast majority as evidenced here ... think that the two are tied together. Membership in the church is NOT what is important. Membership with Jesus is what really counts. When you were baptized ... you were not baptized into the Seventh day Adventist Church. You were baptized into Christ. Membership is accomplished by having 51% of the people present on a particular Sabbath ... vote in the affirmative for you.

[Guest]

Yes you still need a savior. Even if you stop sinning, you are under the death penalty for your past sins without Christ.

[John317]

So...my question is still the same...if we can stop sinning, do we need Christs death?Care to tell us who is not sinning?

In the context of disfellowshipping, the fact that people are sinful or sinning is not the issue. The church does not disfellowship people simply because they sin. Disfellowshipping is something that's done when people deliberately, willfully, stubbornly practice open sin. They are unrepentant and make no effort to change. There's a clear difference between that and people who want to obey God and demonstrate by their lives that they are making a sincere effort to live a Christian life.

For sure every human being needs Christ's death. But needing Christ's death does not mean people whom He saves MUST go on practicing the same sins year in and year out. God makes a way of escape for us. He provides power to live differently and to be happy living for God. I know personally that He does this. It is not a theory but as real as anything can be.

Whether you know someone who is not sinning is irrelevant. Humans would need Christ's death and forgiveness even if they did not commit a single sin from here on out.

That would like telling a cop he can't stop you for speeding as long as other people are speeding. What other people are doing has no effect on God in the judgment. We are judged as if we are the only person in the world. God doesn't grade on the curve. What other people are doing-- whether sinning or not-- doesn't have any influence on our judgment by God.

The Bible shows clearly that sinning is a choice and that we can't be forced to sin. Paul said, "Should we go on sinning because we are not under law but under grace? Of course not. Perish the thought." Speaking through the Apostle, the Holy Spirit is telling us that by God's grace we can choose not to sin against God. Otherwise the passage makes no sense. The Holy Spirit in the life of the believer empowers us to resist every temptation that we face. That's a major part of the Good News of the gospel.

[John317]

With all the 'looking' for sin in our lives and others, how do we have time for simply keeping our eyes on Christ?

Who has stopped sinning?

If we were busy keeping your eyes on Jesus, we would be too busy to conclude that everyone else is sinning.

Elijah thought everyone but him was unfaithful to God, but God told him he was wrong. I think God would no doubt tell us the same thing. Ellen White wrote that there are Enochs among us, but the Enochs don't talk about their being without sin. Yet they do talk about the possibility of living for God and doing His will. Enoch did not tell people they couldn't obey God or keep His commandments. That is a false message.

[John317]

Surely with all the knowledge we have, there shouldn't be any inadvertent sinning.

If we still sin, was it with out our own knowledge of it? Did we not not search long enough to find out about all sinful things?

Believers who are studying and praying are constantly learning more of God's will for their lives. I frequently learn that God wants me to make changes, and that often means that I've been sinning without realizing it. Those are still sins and when we become convicted of them, we need to confess and repent of them and turn away from them. The Bible describes this as spiritual growth, walking in the light, or "sanctification."

So, yes, even for people who have studied and been believers for a long time, there is a probability of "inadvertent sinning." I don't think it's unreasonable to think it may happen. God doesn't convict us of all our sins and short-comings all at once. Thank God He doesn't, right? If He did, it could be terribly discouraging, I'm sure.

[Woody]

Quote:

The Bible shows clearly that sinning is a choice and that we can't be forced to sin.

AMEN. I do agree with you. There is no such thing as non-willful sinning. When I sin ... I choose to sin. Finally ... we have some understanding on this issue.

We have ALL the resources of Heaven to not sin. There is NO excuse for sin as our prophet puts it.

Thus ... we need a Saviour.

[Guest]

The Savior does not leave you powerless. He forgives your past and gives you the power to overcome, unless you deny that power. Thereby saving you from your sins, not in your sins.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

[John317]

The Devil can not make us do anything...it isn't his fault if we sin. So whose is it?

It's our fault we sin. You are right, the Devil can't force us to sin. Sin, as you say, is a choice, not nature. That's an important point. Thanks for making it.

Yet, as the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy point out, not all sin is a deliberate and willful choice, in the same way that not all crimes are willful. Some sins are due to open rebellion against God. Other sins are due to human weakness and to the fact that a temptation occurs when people are they not expecting it and when they're least prepared for it. Deliberate and willful sins are those sins that people do because of planning. For instance, a man may plan a week in advance to drive his car an hour away to commit a sin. That would clearly be different from a man who is tempted to commit a sin on the spur of the moment without any such planning. For sure they are both sins, but one is a sin of rebellion against God and the other may not be.

David sinned before but those sins were different from his deliberate, willful crime against Uriah. God showed that He saw that sin as different from the other sins David committed, didn't He? See the sad and tragic story in 2 Sam. 11 & 12.

[Woody]

No matter who you want to dice it or slice it ... ANY sin and any kind of sin if you have to catagorize them ... will keep you from heaven. Sin of ANY kind disqualifies you from heaven. The curse of the law then applies. And you had better know a Savior.

This idea that some sins are not to be taken seriously and don't need a Savior ... is strictly from the Devil.

When our prophet says there is no excuse for sin ... she means there is no excuse for ANY sins. She does not make any qualifications.

As for me and mine ... we will serve God and believe in the Bible and the SOP.

[John317]

AMEN. I do agree with you. There is no such thing as non-willful sinning. When I sin ... I choose to sin. Finally ... we have some understanding on this issue.

We have ALL the resources of Heaven to not sin. There is NO excuse for sin as our prophet puts it.

Thus ... we need a Saviour.

You still don't appear to understand the difference between "willful" and "unintentional." If you go to a good attorney, they will explain it to you.

If you are accused of a crime, and the court asks you if you want to plead guilty to having willfully done something against the law, would you tell the court that all crime is willful? If you did, the court would then no doubt explain to you the difference.

As the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy point out, not all sin is a deliberate and willful choice, in the same way that not all crimes are willful. Some sins are due to open rebellion against God. Other sins are due to human weakness and to the fact that a temptation occurs when people are they not expecting it and when they're least prepared for it. Deliberate and willful sins are those sins that people do because of planning. For instance, a man may plan a week in advance to drive his car an hour away to commit a sin. That would clearly be different from a man who is tempted to commit a sin on the spur of the moment without any such planning. For sure they are both sins, but one is a sin of rebellion against God and the other may not be.

David sinned before but those sins were different from his deliberate, willful crime against Uriah. God showed that He saw that sin as different from the other sins David committed, didn't He? See the sad and tragic story in 2 Sam. 11 & 12.

[Woody]

ANY sin will keep you out of heaven. This is what you fail to understand. These kinds of theories are just an excuse to sin. But, as our prophet says ... there is NO excuse for sin. Those who try to excuse sin will be on the outside lookin' in.

[Woody]

Quote:

" It is a very delicate matter to deal with human minds, and in every case much wisdom from heaven is needed, and a strict guard put on self. As we see the inconsistencies of individuals, we are sometimes stirred to speak and act as we feel, and yet it may not always be in wisdom. I sympathize with you, my brother, and do not wonder that you are sometimes put to your wits' end to know how to act when confronted with the unreasonable course of those who look on only one side of the question--the side that will please and profit them; but we are ever to bear in mind that their education and hereditary tendencies color their opinions and bias their judgment." EGW in {19MR 89.1}

[John317]

No matter who you want to dice it or slice it ... ANY sin and any kind of sin if you have to catagorize them ... will keep you from heaven. Sin of ANY kind disqualifies you from heaven. The curse of the law then applies. And you had better know a Savior.

When our prophet says there is no excuse for sin ... she means there is no excuse for ANY sins. She does not make any qualifications.

Study well the following official SDA doctrines, Redwood:

Quote:

In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Lord and Christ, as Substitute and Example. This faith which receives salvation comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God's grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God's sons and daughters, and delivered from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God's law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgement.—Fundamental Beliefs, 10

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.—Fundamental Beliefs, 23

[Woody]

Quote:

" If we come to the Word of God with a teachable, humble spirit, the rubbish of error will be swept away, and gems of truth, long hidden from our eyes, will be discovered." {1SM 359.2}

[Woody]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}

Anyone who tries to excuse sin is teaching error.

[John317]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." {TDG 318.3}

Anyone who tries to excuse sin is teaching error.

Do you see what Ellen White is saying above? She is saying there is no excuse for sin because God has placed all the power at our disposal that we need in order to choose righteousness and obey God. Under those circumstances, what will happen to those who continue to choose to practice sin? The Bible is clear: they will perish. They will find themselves on the outside of the city. See 1 Cor. 6: 9, 10; Rev. 22: 15. If they loved Christ more than their sins, they would have ceased to commit them when the Holy Spirit convicts them. If we keep doing those sins, it is because we love them more than we love Christ, and the Bible says that those who love sin will not be saved. Compare Rom. 2: 5-11 and 2 Peter 1: 1-11. How does Peter say we will find an entrance to God's kingdom abundantly supplied to us?

Notice again:

Quote:

The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent.—Fundamental Beliefs, 23

1) The investigative judgment looks at our lives. Specifically it looks to see who are "deemed worthy" to be in the first resurrected.

2) The IJ also looks to see who are "keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" and are therefore ready for translation.

3) The IJ also declares that those who have REMAINED LOYAL TO GOD shall receive the kingdom.

The above clearly shows that our lives have a close relationship to our salvation.

The above also shows clearly that it's possible to keep the commandments of God and to be loyal to God.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Since the laws of nature are the laws of God, it is plainly our duty to give these laws careful study. We should study their requirements in regard to our own bodies, and conform to them. Ignorance in these things is sin." {CD 18.2}

Trying to excuse sin because one claims they are ignorant is no excuse. This is the tool of the Devil. There is NO excuse for sin. Ignorance will not get you to heaven. It is simply not an excuse.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.

[Woody]

[John317]

Trying to excuse sin because one claims they are ignorant is no excuse. This is the tool of the Devil. There is NO excuse for sin. Ignorance will not get you to heaven. It is simply not an excuse.

Read:

As the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy point out, not all sin is a deliberate and willful choice, in the same way that not all crimes are willful. Some sins are due to open rebellion against God. Other sins are due to human weakness and to the fact that a temptation occurs when people are they not expecting it and when they're least prepared for it. Deliberate and willful sins are those sins that people do because of planning. For instance, a man may plan a week in advance to drive his car an hour away to commit a sin. That would clearly be different from a man who is tempted to commit a sin on the spur of the moment without any such planning. For sure they are both sins, but one is a sin of rebellion against God and the other may not be.

David sinned before but those sins were different from his deliberate, willful crime against Uriah. God showed that He saw that sin as different from the other sins David committed, didn't He? See the sad and tragic story in 2 Sam. 11 & 12.

Believers who are studying and praying are constantly learning more of God's will for their lives. I frequently learn that God wants me to make changes, and that often means that I've been sinning without realizing it. Those are still sins and when we become convicted of them, we need to confess and repent of them and turn away from them. The Bible describes this as spiritual growth, walking in the light, or "sanctification."

[Woody]

Trying to excuse sin because one claims they are ignorant is no excuse. This is the tool of the Devil. There is NO excuse for sin. Ignorance will not get you to heaven. It is simply not an excuse.

[Woody]

"The understanding of the people of God has been blinded, for Satan has misrepresented the character of God. Our good and gracious Lord has been presented before the people clothed in the attributes of Satan, and men and women who have been seeking for truth, have so long regarded God in a false light that it is difficult to dispel the cloud that obscures His glory from their view. Many have been living in an atmosphere of doubt, and it seems almost impossible for them to lay hold on the hope set before them in the gospel of Christ." 1 S.M.355.