The General Conference Inquisition

[karl]

Richard,

Do you believe that we must cooperate with God in our own salvation?

Calvinism and Universalism are very logical outgrowths of the belief that we cannot cooperate with God in our own salvation. This belief stems from an approach to Scripture which goes like this. "Since with man this is impossible, God has to do it all by Himself."

This concept has crept steadily into Adventist thought (it didn't start with QOD,) and, in fact, has been present in a subtle way in the Adventist Hymnals for eighty years.

The cool thing about this theology is that it costs you nothing. You get to do whatever you feel like doing and call it good. Because, in this theology sanctification is not salvation. It is secondary to salvation and is the natural and automatic outgrowth of salvation.

Scripture and EGW teach that man must cooperate with God in both justification and sanctification and that these are both part of salvation. While self cannot cast out self, submission to a Higher Power allows self to be cast out by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I was reading one of Spurgeon's sermons the other day. It started out as a defense of the "entirely by grace" position, but in the last half of the sermon he sounds just like a historic Adventist, preaching cooperation as the facilitator of salvation.

There are things that God cannot do for us. God cannot believe, confess, repent, submit or be forgiving toward others "for" us. He woos us to do these things, but we must do them. Continuously.

God's grace is proactive. He makes all the first moves. But Adventists believe God does all this to preserve our free will (which Universalism and Calvinism both deny.)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is when one says they can have willfull sin in their lives and be saved, that we can take and apply James spiritual comprehension and Pauls counsel here...

I would agree with that, not ruling out other certain scenarios

equally applicable.

Blessings!

Indeed, like ignorance of the truth...

I have read many wonderful Christian authors who were confused with the once saved always saved doctrine.

But I doubt whether they would have held on to that if the light had been bought to them.

I hope not anyway...

Mark

[Twilight]

Quote:

My friend, (and I am your friend, even if you refuse it), your posts have been long and many, but you have never ever dealt with this simple point.

Why not?

Mark

I've discussed all of these issues Mark. They are ignored or twisted. So, why would I have a serious discussion with some one who lies and contorts?

And why would you care about the beliefs of someone you have proclaimed is going to Hell?

At some point ... a person needs to back off. I've asked both Mark and John to stop 'saving' me. I have indicated that it is not our job to save others. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict. So ... back to Hell I go

Again, it appears you sidestep the issue.

Do you believe that someone will be saved in "willful sin"?

[Twilight]

Quote:

If I were in a strange place, I would be very grateful if

someone told me I was lost and pointed me in the right direction.

Trouble is ... what if they were pointing you to Hell and claiming it was heaven?

Then you would be duty bound to show them from the scripture where they are wrong.

And you would have to start with the very truth they have pointed you to...

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

It seams to me that some direct us further and further away from the simple Gospel message and make it so complicated and burdensome that no one in their right mind would be attracted to it.

Are you saying that to have our eyes directed to Jesus, to His divine Person, and to His all-sufficient merits, to the necessity of appropriating His merits to ourselves by faith is complicating the Gospel when the pen of inspiration tells us that this is the very Gospel message presented in a way that is just as simple as accepting the letters of the alphabet?

sky

Indeed?

Some want to point to men as their basis of faith.

When it comes to either Jack Sequira or Jesus and His prophets, I will take the second...

[Twilight]

Stan ... I see now that I was not very clear on this. Sorry.

Richard stated Rob was not an SDA when he knows that Rob is.

I was also using Marks quotes and statements about people as follows : "I know you are not saved."

"I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord."

Sorry I meshed them into one confusing post. I will attempt to see if I can edit it and make it clearer.

Are those quotes I made Redwood?

Or are they your interpretation of those quotes?

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

But if we knew his home church, we could call them and get him in trouble. Isn't that standard protocol when we disagree with someone?

Unfortunately ... that is why I don't use my name on the internet. There are so many freaks out there and you never know what they will do. We've had our car splashed with paint just due to crazies like this.

People will resort to violence just because they feel you are not conservative enough. Amazing.

Anyways ... yes this happens as we know. I take Rob at his word that his membership is intact. I don't think he should reveal where .

But you often insisted that Sky reveal his membership Redwood...?

[olger]

One nice thing about facebook is that people use their real names. Creates an environment of honesty...

I'll start.

Gerald Wagoner

aka olger

Piqua, OH

[skyblue888]

Amazing Facts is not an independent ministry. It is fully qualified and recognized as a denominational organization. It is a ministry of the Northern California Conference and the church of which Doug is pastor is a part of that conference.

The real question should be, Are the leaders of the SDA new movement independent of God or not?

sky

[olger]

Dependence upon God is a good thing !

Gerald Wagoner

aka olger

Piqua, OH

[Twilight]

One nice thing about facebook is that people use their real names. Creates an environment of honesty...

I'll start.

Gerald Wagoner

aka olger

Piqua, OH

Mark Timberlake

Peterborough

Uk...

[Guest]

Richard,

Do you believe that we must cooperate with God in our own salvation?

Calvinism and Universalism are very logical outgrowths of the belief that we cannot cooperate with God in our own salvation. This belief stems from an approach to Scripture which goes like this. "Since with man this is impossible, God has to do it all by Himself."

This concept has crept steadily into Adventist thought (it didn't start with QOD,) and, in fact, has been present in a subtle way in the Adventist Hymnals for eighty years.

The cool thing about this theology is that it costs you nothing. You get to do whatever you feel like doing and call it good. Because, in this theology sanctification is not salvation. It is secondary to salvation and is the natural and automatic outgrowth of salvation.

Scripture and EGW teach that man must cooperate with God in both justification and sanctification and that these are both part of salvation. While self cannot cast out self, submission to a Higher Power allows self to be cast out by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I was reading one of Spurgeon's sermons the other day. It started out as a defense of the "entirely by grace" position, but in the last half of the sermon he sounds just like a historic Adventist, preaching cooperation as the facilitator of salvation.

There are things that God cannot do for us. God cannot believe, confess, repent, submit or be forgiving toward others "for" us. He woos us to do these things, but we must do them. Continuously.

God's grace is proactive. He makes all the first moves. But Adventists believe God does all this to preserve our free will (which Universalism and Calvinism both deny.)

Yes I do believe that we must cooperate with God in our own salvation. Absolutely.

[guibox]

Here is the Biblical Research Institute report on the "inquisition" of which Larson was writing - http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/Independent%20Ministries/HopeInternationalRpt.htm What you have posted here is his response to this report.

[Woody]

Quote:

Frankly, if they want to start their own cultic organization, dress up like Puritans, plant vegetables, use a plow and shun anything EGW wrote after 1888, all the more power to the legalists. However, quit trying to pass yourself off as a member of the SDA church while criticizing it on the other hand.

Thank you. Well stated.

[Woody]

Quote:

Are those quotes I made Redwood?

Or are they your interpretation of those quotes?

Uhhh. Those would be the exact quotes. When I use quotation marks ... I mean it.

[Woody]

Quote:

At the risk of sounding contrary, I find it interesting there have been found those easy to pronounce lost, when on another thread there were used many posts criticizing vehemently others supposedly placing you in a similar category.

Good Point. I'm glad that you noticed that I was placed in a similar position. Perhaps you missed my post where I made the announcement that I would from here on ... join the conservatives in the type of posts that they approve of.

If you noticed ... I put the part in question ... in quotation marks. In other words ... I was not saying it myself. I was quoting Mark.

[Woody]

Quote:

Do you believe that someone will be saved in "willful sin"?

I've already answered this questions multiple times and yet you lie and twist and contort and proclaim I am lost. Why do you ask me this now when you have already proclaimed loud and clear to the world that I am lost because I believe this.

Here's what you said:

Quote:

"It is not a matter of "question" it is a matter of fact.

I know you are not saved.

No one will be saved living in willfull sin.

Only those that are "in Christ" will be saved.

Sin has to be destroyed and all those things that are connected to it will also be destroyed.

Whilst you claim you will be saved in your sin, I know you are lost.

Because you do not know the Lord."

Sure sounds like you know quite a bit about me. So why are you asking now? Even after I have repeatedly denied what you are saying. What does one call it when one repeats what he knows the other has denied? I call it fraud and lies.

[Woody]

Mark. What you have done is no different than this response to what you have said. And I put your statements in quotes ...

"I know you are not saved."

Mark ... I know you are not saved because you believe in legalism.

"I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord."

Mark ... I know you are lost because you believe in legalism. And since the Lord does not believe in legalism ... you don't know the Lord.

"You are saying "Lord, Lord..."

Mark ... You keep saying you are saved by your works ... but the Lord does not hear you.

"And are "working iniquity".

Mark ... It is YOU that worketh iniquity for we all sin.

"According to Jesus' judgement, you do not know the Lord."

Mark ... according to the Lord's judgment you are lost because you believe in legalism.

"So no, you are not saved, and I love you too much to be gentle with this."

So no Mark ... you are not saved because you believe in legalism and I love you too much to not tell you the Truth.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Amazing Facts is not an independent ministry. It is fully qualified and recognized as a denominational organization. It is a ministry of the Northern California Conference and the church of which Doug is pastor is a part of that conference.

The real question should be, Are the leaders of the SDA new movement independent of God or not?

sky

Huh? What new movement? Our movement started in 1863. If you consider that to be new ... then so be it.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Are those quotes I made Redwood?

Or are they your interpretation of those quotes?

Uhhh. Those would be the exact quotes. When I use quotation marks ... I mean it.

So those quotes were all made in the same post and they are in their own context?

[Twilight]

Quote:

Do you believe that someone will be saved in "willful sin"?

I've already answered this questions multiple times and yet you lie and twist and contort and proclaim I am lost. Why do you ask me this now when you have already proclaimed loud and clear to the world that I am lost because I believe this.

Here's what you said:

Quote:

"It is not a matter of "question" it is a matter of fact.

I know you are not saved.

No one will be saved living in willfull sin.

Only those that are "in Christ" will be saved.

Sin has to be destroyed and all those things that are connected to it will also be destroyed.

Whilst you claim you will be saved in your sin, I know you are lost.

Because you do not know the Lord."

Sure sounds like you know quite a bit about me. So why are you asking now? Even after I have repeatedly denied what you are saying. What does one call it when one repeats what he knows the other has denied? I call it fraud and lies.

Redwood, if you do not want to be "misrepresented", then please state your case.

If you believe that you are saved whilst practicing willfull sin, which you have expressed on this board over and over again, then the above applies to you.

But if you do not believe that, then of course I would withdraw the above.

So please, clarify your position so that I can know if the above is applicable to you or not.

As far as I am aware, you have clearly communicated that you are saved in willful sin.

Over and over.

If that has been misunderstood, then here is your opportunity to correct that misunderstanding.

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

So those quotes were all made in the same post and they are in their own context?

Yes they were most certainly in the same post and in the proper context. Why cast doubt on it Mark. You wrote it ... you should know. Trying to cover up the truth will not help you.It's a matter of record. And we all saw it and know.

[Twilight]

Mark. What you have done is no different than this response to what you have said. And I put your statements in quotes ...

"I know you are not saved."

Mark ... I know you are not saved because you believe in legalism.

"I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord."

Mark ... I know you are lost because you believe in legalism. And since the Lord does not believe in legalism ... you don't know the Lord.

"You are saying "Lord, Lord..."

Mark ... You keep saying you are saved by your works ... but the Lord does not hear you.

"And are "working iniquity".

Mark ... It is YOU that worketh iniquity for we all sin.

"According to Jesus' judgement, you do not know the Lord."

Mark ... according to the Lord's judgment you are lost because you believe in legalism.

"So no, you are not saved, and I love you too much to be gentle with this."

So no Mark ... you are not saved because you believe in legalism and I love you too much to not tell you the Truth.

Then show me my friend.

Show me from the scripture why I am a "legalist".

Start a new thread and make your case, and Lord willing if you can show me from scripture that I am in error and not following the Lord, then I will follow that "light".

I have no problem with you presenting your view on my position, I just ask you to clarify why you believe that please.

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

Redwood, if you do not want to be "misrepresented", then please state your case.

Quote:

If you believe that you are saved whilst practicing willfull sin, which you have expressed on this board over and over again, then the above applies to you.

But if you do not believe that, then of course I would withdraw the above.

So please, clarify your position so that I can know if the above is applicable to you or not.

As far as I am aware, you have clearly communicated that you are saved in willful sin.

Over and over.

If that has been misunderstood, then here is your opportunity to correct that misunderstanding.

Mark

How many times I have I told you that you have lied and misrepresented my views? How many times have I explained my beliefs? Does it do any good? I am sick and tired of telling you how I believe and then to have lies posted about it and being told I am going to Hell because of your twisted lies about my beliefs.

Just take my word for it before condemning me. I've stated ... that you lie about my beliefs. Enough said.

And Mark ... I've had enough discussions with you.

I don't care to discuss things with anyone who is dishonest with what I say.

And I don't care to discuss things with people who condemn others to Hell. You are not God.

Mark. I don't need you to correct me. I am not asking you to help me. I don't need your help and don't want it. I don't need you to even understand me. What I need is for you to stick with the issues. State your theories and beliefs. But stop stating MY beliefs. Let me do that as I please. Thank you.

[olger]

Quote:

At the risk of sounding contrary, I find it interesting there have been found those easy to pronounce lost, when on another thread there were used many posts criticizing vehemently others supposedly placing you in a similar category.

Good Point. I'm glad that you noticed that I was placed in a similar position. Perhaps you missed my post where I made the announcement that I would from here on ... join the conservatives in the type of posts that they approve of.

If you noticed ... I put the part in question ... in quotation marks. In other words ... I was not saying it myself. I was quoting Mark.

Take 1 Psalms 34 and call me in the morning..

oG