SivartM Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 This is very off-topic... but, hey. Anyway, I think that a pyramidal New Jerusalem would look better than a cube. Really, a giant cube sitting on top of the earth? Ugh. But, who knows? It might not be either shape. "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
LifeHiscost Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 QR frame: Are Xtians required to keep them? Indeed not! You're absolutely right. However the fact that Christians aren't required to do them doesn't avoid the fact that all unrepented sin committed has it's sure reward. “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.Ezekiel 18:4 NKJV "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 KJV Hallelujah!!!! Blessings! Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Only problem with that is....Mark is not a legalist. I can't take your word for that...I must compare his theology to Paul's.....When I do that I see a Galatian gospel....
Guest Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: jasd QR frame: Are Xtians required to keep them? Indeed not! You're absolutely right. However the fact that Christians aren't required to do them doesn't avoid the fact that all unrepented sin committed has it's sure reward. “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die.Ezekiel 18:4 NKJV "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 KJV Hallelujah!!!! Blessings!
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Posted December 9, 2009 >>Unlike the Hebrew view of perfection, the Greeks had a very narrow and ridged view of perection and the only thing they saw as perfect was a completely perfect cube without the slightest variation.<< I would like to see the source for the opinion expressed above. I think that, from apparent evidence incorporated into both the Tabernacle and the Parthenon, it seems that the rectangle based on the Fibonacci sequence – may have better represented perfection to those cultures. That said, I believe, rather, we must consider that the book of Revelation expressed the thoughts of Jesus Christ instead that of either that of the Hebrews or the Greeks. Jesus Christ revealed to St John that the New Jerusalem is His bride. [/off-the-cuff remembrance] Seems to me, that a chief cornerstone as capstone is a better verisimilitude of the metaphors Writ provide – representing Him as the Head – than anything that might represent Him as the foot[ing] of the City. There are many books and studies out there For starters see Bowman's "Hebrew Thought compaired to Greek" which is the classic. (also to understand the ancient world better see also "Before Philosophy" by Frankfort and others, University of Chicago Press, from the mid 1940s. Sadly out of print, but it also explains the Day-Year principle)
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 9, 2009 Moderators Posted December 9, 2009 This is very off-topic... but, hey. Anyway, I think that a pyramidal New Jerusalem would look better than a cube. Really, a giant cube sitting on top of the earth? Ugh. But, who knows? It might not be either shape. Exactly Mrs. White keeps telling how Revelation uses symbols and the cube is the symbol of perfection to Greek thinkers. John is saying simply that it is a perfect city. It will be a lot more beautiful than just a giant cube.
LifeHiscost Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Oh brother. Not another sermon on the Sky theory of 'merits'. Why not just refer him to the volumes already written here. I would consider this a personal attack on a brother Redwood. Mockery in fact. My understanding of the gospel is that all that reach the kingdom will be there as a result of Jesus' shed blood having washed their sins away. Being righteous is a good thing. It is not the reason we will enter the kingdom, though it will be a characteristic of all who do enter. None have a total handle on understanding the gospel. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. "1 Cor 13:9,10 NKJV Blessings! Lift Jesus up!!
jasd Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 >>You're absolutely right. However the fact that Christians aren't required to do them doesn't avoid the fact that all unrepented sin committed has it's sure reward.<< As I recall, I believe I spoke to the whole book of the law - the 600-plus ceremonial laws, mostly. Their keeping is not required of the Xtian. Should The 'Commandments' be written on the believer's heart - then, sin ought to be thought to take on very personal and subjective claims upon the individual. What is considered sin to you, such as venerating the mother of Gd, proves otherwise to another. Per bowing down to this or that individual... it might be considered sin to one - but not to another. David prostated himself before King Saul. It is sometimes more relative than we like to think
LifeHiscost Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Jesus Christ revealed to St John that the New Jerusalem is His bride. [/off-the-cuff remembrance] Seems to me, that a chief cornerstone as capstone is a better verisimilitude of the metaphors Writ provide – representing Him as the Head – than anything that might represent Him as the foot[ing] of the City. An engineer or architect recognize the chief cornerstone as the first stone set in place while all other parts of the building obtain their stability from that initial placement. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. ! Cor 3:9-11 KJV Blessings! Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 It is sometimes more relative than we like to think To see the results of relativism all one has to do is turn on the TV channels. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"John 14:6 KJV "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. "Hebrews 13:8 NKJV Relativism stands diametrically opposed to Jesus while some who profess to be interested in furthering the gospel, deny its' stability in Christ. Blessings! Lift Jesus up!!
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Mark ... you have repeatedly told me that we are saved by our works. Yet ... I am the one that according to you is lost? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." "You are saying "Lord, Lord..." "And are "working iniquity". "According to Jesus' judgement, you do not know the Lord." "So no, you are not saved, and I love you too much to be gentle with this." Mark Quote: I feel deeply over this matter of men being conscience for their fellowmen. Stand out of the way, and let God work His own instrumentalities. Some have done work for which God will call them to account. He will ask of them, Who hath required this at your hands? {TM 295.3} I have not liberty to place my writing in the hands of men who feel that their work is to act the part of detectives over their brethren. My brethren in positions of trust, will you not discern your own deficiencies and put on the whole armor of righteousness yourselves? Will you not be just as watchful and critical over your own spirits and temperaments and words as you are over those of others, lest God should be dishonored, and His truth misrepresented? Your discernment would be greatly improved if you would do this." {TM 295.4} Could none of those who have made themselves detectives see the tendency of the position they have taken in endeavoring to become a controlling power?" TM 295 May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 " Be careful how you sin against your brethren by misjudging them, and speaking evil of them. God has not given you permission to climb upon the judgment-seat, and pronounce one good because he praises, pets, and favors you, and denounce another because he is not your particular friend. " ST, October 22, 1885 par. 7 May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Only problem with that is....Mark is not a legalist. Indeed I am not Richard. There is nothing in me that can keep the Law, nothing in my natural self. But when I receive the divine Grace and gift of the presence of Jesus in my heart, He can indeed keep the Law in me. When this experience is found, then I can walk in the Law of God. Why? Because God does the walking and carries me. ---------- So now it is God's responsibility. So to make the charge of legalist here is to charge God Himself with legalism. As it is Him that is doing the work in me. And only a fool would charge God with legalism, a fool or a servant of Satan, would they not? Mark The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Mark ... you have repeatedly told me that we are saved by our works. Yet ... I am the one that according to you is lost? Can you supply a quote for this allegation? The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 "I know you are not saved." "I know you are lost. Because you do not know the Lord." "You are saying "Lord, Lord..." "And are "working iniquity". "According to Jesus' judgement, you do not know the Lord." "So no, you are not saved, and I love you too much to be gentle with this." Mark Quote: I feel deeply over this matter of men being conscience for their fellowmen. Stand out of the way, and let God work His own instrumentalities. Some have done work for which God will call them to account. He will ask of them, Who hath required this at your hands? {TM 295.3} I have not liberty to place my writing in the hands of men who feel that their work is to act the part of detectives over their brethren. My brethren in positions of trust, will you not discern your own deficiencies and put on the whole armor of righteousness yourselves? Will you not be just as watchful and critical over your own spirits and temperaments and words as you are over those of others, lest God should be dishonored, and His truth misrepresented? Your discernment would be greatly improved if you would do this." {TM 295.4} Could none of those who have made themselves detectives see the tendency of the position they have taken in endeavoring to become a controlling power?" TM 295 It would be preferable if you quoted in context Redwood... It seems you have pulled some points I made together, to make the conversation appear as dark as possible? Why would you do that? The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 " Be careful how you sin against your brethren by misjudging them, and speaking evil of them. God has not given you permission to climb upon the judgment-seat, and pronounce one good because he praises, pets, and favors you, and denounce another because he is not your particular friend. " ST, October 22, 1885 par. 7 Indeed, this would be a sin. But when someone points out that your belief system will cause you to be lost, because it is in direct contradiction to Jesus own testimony, then I do not think the above is applicable. In all of your upset posts Redwood, you have never once dealt with the text I gave you. Can you do that? Can you show the users of this board how it is that you say you are saved "practicing willfull known iniquity" and Jesus says you are not? That is the issue, but you have not dealt with that issue. Mark The best wisdom is always second hand...
Robert Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Can you show the users of this board how it is that you say you are saved "practicing willfull known iniquity" and Jesus says you are not? Do you practice self-seeking and self-love daily? Let's put this question to the test: You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439] Are you even partially seeking your own wealth? Do you live for self or do you not seek your own wealth, but instead another's? Again, where you have "self" you have sin.... "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." Are you thinking of yourself....What you want....Homes, cars, money, etc...or are you living solely for others. Christ was the servant of all even to the point of poverty... "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." As you look at your life can you say there's no "self-love" and "self-interest" in it? If not, you are practicing iniquity - one's bent towards self.... Again, perfectionist like yourself limit sin by defining it into rules they can keep and then making hard on everyone else that can't keep their limited standard....
Robert Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood " Be careful how you sin against your brethren by misjudging them, and speaking evil of them. God has not given you permission to climb upon the judgment-seat, and pronounce one good because he praises, pets, and favors you, and denounce another because he is not your particular friend. " ST, October 22, 1885 par. 7 Indeed, this would be a sin. But .... No "buts", Mark... Don't judge when you practice iniquity yourself.....Ellen White calls it "earthliness"...worldliness Where you have self-interests...you have sin.
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Can you show the users of this board how it is that you say you are saved "practicing willfull known iniquity" and Jesus says you are not? Do you practice self-seeking and self-love daily? Let's put this question to the test: You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439] Are you even partially seeking your own wealth? Do you live for self or do you not seek your own wealth, but instead another's? Again, where you have "self" you have sin.... "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." Are you thinking of yourself....What you want....Homes, cars, money, etc...or are you living solely for others. Christ was the servant of all even to the point of poverty... "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." As you look at your life can you say there's no "self-love" and "self-interest" in it? If not, you are practicing iniquity - one's bent towards self.... Again, perfectionist like yourself limit sin by defining it into rules they can keep and then making hard on everyone else that can't keep their limited standard.... I can do all these things in Christ Robert. What is it? Do you have no faith that God can keep you? Mark :-) The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: So to make the charge of legalist here is to charge God Himself with legalism. So ... you equate yourself as God. If that isn't blasphemy I don't know what is. You continue to amaze me Mark. First you tell me I am lost because I don't know Jesus. Placing yourself as God in judgment of me. And now this. It is clear you have a different view of yourself than I do. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood " Be careful how you sin against your brethren by misjudging them, and speaking evil of them. God has not given you permission to climb upon the judgment-seat, and pronounce one good because he praises, pets, and favors you, and denounce another because he is not your particular friend. " ST, October 22, 1885 par. 7 Indeed, this would be a sin. But when someone points out that your belief system will cause you to be lost, because it is in direct contradiction to Jesus own testimony, then I do not think the above is applicable. Mark Amazing. Just amazing. Who has made you God Mark? Okay ... if you want to play that game. I will go along with it. If you can do it though ... so can I. So here on ... I will point out how you are lost by your heresy ... and you can point out how I am lost because of my heresy. Wow. What a game. You keep telling me I am going to Hell. But what good does that do? Why not just stick to the issues instead of where you think I am destined? Sure ... I believe your beliefs are of the Devil. But why should I go around telling you of that on the Public Airways? Does it make you feel important to proclaim that I am lost. If you really believed this ... wouldn't you come to me in private and try to help me. This public denouncing of me .... does not seem Christian to me. But again ... if that is the game you want to play ... we can play it and see how well the others enjoy it. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Quote: Again, perfectionist like yourself limit sin by defining it into rules they can keep and then making hard on everyone else that can't keep their limited standard.... Exactly. Well said Rob. But for some reason their perfectionism blinds them. And if they do realize their sins ... they would rather transfer them to others and project their guilt on someone else. Thus ... the accusations that others are going to Hell. ANYone else other than themselves. True Christians look at their own life and try to best honor God instead of projecting their sins on others. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted December 9, 2009 Posted December 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Twilight Indeed, this would be a sin. But when someone points out that your belief system will cause you to be lost, because it is in direct contradiction to Jesus own testimony, then I do not think the above is applicable. Mark [/quote'] Amazing. Just amazing. Who has made you God Mark? Okay ... if you want to play that game. I will go along with it. If you can do it though ... so can I. So here on ... I will point out how you are lost by your heresy ... and you can point out how I am lost because of my heresy. Wow. What a game. You keep telling me I am going to Hell. But what good does that do? Why not just stick to the issues instead of where you think I am destined? Sure ... I believe your beliefs are of the Devil. But why should I go around telling you of that on the Public Airways? Does it make you feel important to proclaim that I am lost. If you really believed this ... wouldn't you come to me in private and try to help me. This public denouncing of me .... does not seem Christian to me. But again ... if that is the game you want to play ... we can play it and see how well the others enjoy it. If my beliefs are not correct, show me from the scriptures Redwood. You still have not dealt with the issue where you claim that a person is saved in willful sin, when Jesus clearly states you are not. Can you explain the difference between your view and Jesus' view and reconcile the difference? I have asked you to do this a number of times and you have not dealt with this. As this is the fundamental point you are taking issue with, we could deal with that. But if you insist on making this into some kind of dispute, then I will not engage, there is no point. I would also ask that you take your objections to my posts, to the moderators, they are, I believe, spiritually mature enough to deal with any points you make and I of course will abide by the rules of this forum. Yours and Roberts current approach serves no purpose other than to vent steam and creates a spirit of controversy on the threads which is not necessary at all. Mark :-) The best wisdom is always second hand...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted December 9, 2009 Members Posted December 9, 2009 God is the only One Who has the right to judge any person's fitness for heaven. Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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