The General Conference Inquisition

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

So why don't we talk more of His merits?

Why should we? We've heard you talking about your theory of it till we are blue in the face. Nothing more needs to be said. We're plum worn out.

That's for sure!

[skyblue888]

It is not a "theory" of mine but the message the Lord sent to us over 100 years ago and which was resisted.

"The prejudices and opinions that prevailed at Minneapolis are not dead by any means." T.M.467.

sky

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

So why don't we talk more of His merits?

Why should we? We've heard you talking about your theory of it till we are blue in the face. Nothing more needs to be said. We're plum worn out.

That's for sure!

Is there any topic that should be considered more than this and what it leads in to?

If there is no concern for this topic, then there is no concern for ones salvation.

I personally, can never hear enough of this topic and welcome Sky posting on it as often and as openly as he sees fit in the Lord.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

[Woody]

It is not a "theory" of mine but the message the Lord sent to us over 100 years ago and which was resisted.

"The prejudices and opinions that prevailed at Minneapolis are not dead by any means." T.M.467.

sky

Isn't that the way it is with so many. They think their particular theory is of God and from on High. And guess who God has chosen to proclaim it.??

And Rudywoofs. Good graphics.

[jasd]

>>Length, height, & width are the same.<<

The Apostles are said to be represented by the twelve foundations of the wall. The question obtains,

is the wall intrinsic to the City or is it apart and surrounding the City? The language seems to indicate that the City and the wall are bound, part and parcel one to the other – rather than a wall apart, separate and surrounding the City.

Would that be so, seems to me that the most reasonable placement for the chief cornerstone would appear to be – as

the capstone. Ipso facto, a pyramid.

Besides, could not the factors length, height, and width being the same – indicate a pyramidal structure?

[Kevin H]

>>Length, height, & width are the same.<<

The Apostles are said to be represented by the twelve foundations of the wall. The question obtains,

is the wall intrinsic to the City or is it apart and surrounding the City? The language seems to indicate that the City and the wall are bound, part and parcel one to the other – rather than a wall apart, separate and surrounding the City.

Would that be so, seems to me that the most reasonable placement for the chief cornerstone would appear to be – as

the capstone. Ipso facto, a pyramid.

Besides, could not the factors length, height, and width being the same – indicate a pyramidal structure?

Unlike the Hebrew view of perfection, the Greeks had a very narrow and ridged view of perection and the only thing they saw as perfect was a completely perfect cube without the slightest variation. (Compairing Greek thought to Hebrew thought helps to understand Biblical perfection and our problems with it as the Bible uses the Hebrew view and we read the text with the Greek view in mind) But anyway, Revelation was a symbol of a perfect square to say to Greek thinking people that it is a perfect city.

[Kevin H]

Kevin, I just read your post which I found very interesting but if I am to follow your reasoning, and the reasoning of others, it would seem that the matter of salvation is so complicated that it would be next to impossible to come to a clear and simple understanding of it. Mrs. White declared that the plan of salvation was so simple that it was like a child accepting the alphabet.

"The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64.

"Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; it is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." Signs of the Times, June 16,1890.

It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf. If we are to accept this statement as inspired, then the matter of salvation is as simple as believing that the merits of Christ are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf and we find that it is exactly what is written. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." Steps to Christ, p.36.

So why don't we talk more of His merits?

"Present your case before Him pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

This tells us that this is what we must do in order to be saved. By doing this we are appropriating to ourselves the merits of the world's Redeemer and all the blessings of the Covenant of grace are open before us. Pleading the merits of Jesus in our behalf brings the perfect gift, the gift of the Holy Spirit and this is the gift that brings all other blessings in its train. This gift cannot be excelled and it is worthy of Christ's greatness and Royalty.

It is that simple and the Holy Spirit is given to open the Word of God to our understanding, and bring home its truths to our hearts (See M.B.112) making the Scriptures as a light to our path opening our understanding that we may understand the deep things of God.

That would be a good start, and a good finish, wouln't it, to plead the merits of Christ in our behalf?

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves.." Desire of Ages, p.347.

Thank God for the simplicity of the plan of redemption.

"Living faith enables its possessor to lay hold on the merits of Christ, enables him to derive great comfort and satisfaction from the plan of salvation." Review and Herald, July 1, 1890.

Doesn't this statement tell the whole story as to what we must do in order to be saved?

sky

And it is written that as we appropriate the merits of Jesus to ourselves, we are clothed with the robe of His righteousness and His righteousness is made manifest in OBEDIENCE to all the commandments of God. See Testimonies to Ministers, p.92 and Faith and Works, p.65,66.

Good post. and excellent question so I hope I can clearify and not make more complicated. I just feel that Robert was trying to back me into a corner and why I refuse to be backed into the corner. I believe the quote in the context of all that Mrs. White has said, how it fits her bigger picture of the Great Controversy and for what she says visions do and did not do for her and how her husban said that there were some who were so unballanced that she would purposely over emphesise one aspect to them and was frustrated that there were those who would cling to every word and make it her whole message applying it to everyone. Also I accept it in the light of new discoveries about Paul and the early church as for example presented in Jim Fleming's posts. Unfortunetely I did not see evidence of Robert reading those words from this contextbut having his own agenda that it just sounds too much to me that he may reading into these words his ideas and not necessarly her ideas.

No, Salvation does not have to be complex. I like the illustration by Paul Heubech in his book "Make it Plain" He pictures salvation as you are lost in the wilderness and meet a backwoods man who knows the whole area and how to get you back home. You may not be home but as long as you are with your guide you are no longer lost. And I love the words of Mrs. White "When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our heart. And also let's not forget that the merits of Jesus are his complete unbroken righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Spirit and living the law of self sacrificing love.

[Guest]

I just feel that Richard was trying to back me into a corner

You mean Robert was trying to back you in a corner.

[Kevin H]

Yes, I realized my mistake just as I hit post and went back and edited it, sorry

[Woody]

Yes Kevin. EGW is an all-purpose prophet. She can seem to say whatever the reader wants. It's called "preconceived" ideas. They will slant even the best of prophets.

[Kevin H]

Only if they prooftext her and focus on part of what she writes without ballancing statements or their relationship to her Great Controversy philosophy or if the focus on the filler material or make a one size fit's all application when she does apply to people who are in certan situations.

[tall73]

Only if they prooftext her and focus on part of what she writes without ballancing statements or their relationship to her Great Controversy philosophy or if the focus on the filler material or make a one size fit's all application when she does apply to people who are in certan situations.

If we are always to look at statements within the context of all her other writings that is a lot of material to be familiar with:

[Woody]

Thanks Tall. That's a Tall order to read.

[skyblue888]

And also let's not forget that the merits of Jesus are his complete unbroken righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Spirit and living the law of self sacrificing love.

_________________________________

Kevin, this is another misunderstanding. The merits of Jesus and His righteousness are not one and the same thing for it is written that we must appropriate His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, in order for His righteousness to be imparted to us, and then being clothed with His righteousness we are enabled to keep every precept of the law of God.

"You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life." Faith and Works, pp.64,65.

This is one statement that certainly makes that forever clear.

sky

In 1888, the people were invited to receive the righteousness of Christ which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. In order to receive the righteousness of Christ they were to lay hold by faith of His all-sufficient merits. See T.M.92,93,96-97. This, Mrs. White declared, is the third angel's message which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice and attended with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure. (See T.M.92)

[Woody]

Oh brother. Not another sermon on the Sky theory of 'merits'. Why not just refer him to the volumes already written here.

[Woody]

Only if they prooftext her and focus on part of what she writes without ballancing statements or their relationship to her Great Controversy philosophy or if the focus on the filler material or make a one size fit's all application when she does apply to people who are in certan situations.

I've seen some wild theories on the issue of 'context' when it comes to her writings. What a shame. She warned us about this. In the end times ... her writings will be more and more abused.

[Twilight]

And also let's not forget that the merits of Jesus are his complete unbroken righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Spirit and living the law of self sacrificing love.

_________________________________

Kevin, this is another misunderstanding. The merits of Jesus and His righteousness are not one and the same thing for it is written that we must appropriate His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, in order for His righteousness to be imparted to us, and then being clothed with His righteousness we are enabled to keep every precept of the law of God.

"You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life." Faith and Works, pp.64,65.

This is one statement that certainly makes that forever clear.

sky

In 1888, the people were invited to receive the righteousness of Christ which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. In order to receive the righteousness of Christ they were to lay hold by faith of His all-sufficient merits. See T.M.92,93,96-97. This, Mrs. White declared, is the third angel's message which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice and attended with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure. (See T.M.92)

One way of understanding this, is that the blood of the lamb (representative of the merits of the sacrifice of Jesus), was applied in Egypt on the first passover.

Then the baptism of the Red Sea happened.

Then the entrance into the promised land (righteousness by faith) was received...

It was through the blood of the Lamb, that the rest of the experience of Israel was reached.

Without this, none of it would have been possible.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Oh brother. Not another sermon on the Sky theory of 'merits'. Why not just refer him to the volumes already written here.

I would consider this a personal attack on a brother Redwood.

Mockery in fact.

[Gerr]

Oh brother. Not another sermon on the Sky theory of 'merits'. Why not just refer him to the volumes already written here.

Tired of the merits of Christ as you are with the works of God?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

And also let's not forget that the merits of Jesus are his complete unbroken righteousness by faith relationship with the Father and Spirit and living the law of self sacrificing love.

_________________________________

Kevin, this is another misunderstanding. The merits of Jesus and His righteousness are not one and the same thing for it is written that we must appropriate His merits, the merits of His infinite sacrifice, in order for His righteousness to be imparted to us, and then being clothed with His righteousness we are enabled to keep every precept of the law of God.

"You cannot explain this faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring Christ's righteousness into your life." Faith and Works, pp.64,65.

This is one statement that certainly makes that forever clear.

sky

In 1888, the people were invited to receive the righteousness of Christ which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. In order to receive the righteousness of Christ they were to lay hold by faith of His all-sufficient merits. See T.M.92,93,96-97. This, Mrs. White declared, is the third angel's message which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice and attended with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure. (See T.M.92)

One way of understanding this, is that the blood of the lamb (representative of the merits of the sacrifice of Jesus), was applied in Egypt on the first passover.

Then the baptism of the Red Sea happened.

Then the entrance into the promised land (righteousness by faith) was received...

It was through the blood of the Lamb, that the rest of the experience of Israel was reached.

Without this, none of it would have been possible.

Mark :-)

Yes and this is demonstrated in the wilderness experience when the Israelites were bitten by the fiery serpents.

"Moses was divinely commanded to make a serpent of brass resembling the living ones, and to elevate it among the people. To this, all who had been bitten were to look, and they would find relief. He did so, and the joyful news was sounded throughout the encampment that all who had been bitten might look upon the brazen serpent and live. Many had already died, and when Moses raised the serpent upon the pole, some would not believe that merely gazing upon that metallic image would heal them; these perished in their unbelief. Yet there were many who had faith in the provision which God had made. Fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters were anxiously engaged in helping their suffering, dying friends to fix their languid eyes upon the serpent. If these, though faint and dying, could only once look, they were perfectly restored.

The people well knew that there was no power in the serpent of brass to cause such a change in those who looked upon it. The healing virtue was from God alone. In His wisdom He chose this way of displaying His power. By this simple means the people were made to realize that this affliction had been brought upon them by their sins. They were also assured that while obeying God they had no reason to fear, for He would preserve them.

The lifting up of the brazen serpent was to teach Israel an important lesson. They could not save themselves from the fatal effect of the poison in their wounds. God alone was able to heal them. Yet they were required to show their faith in the provision which He had made. They must look in order to live. It was their faith that was acceptable with God, and by looking upon the serpent their faith was shown. They knew that there was no virtue in the serpent itself, but it was a symbol of Christ; and the necessity of faith in His merits was thus presented to their minds. Heretofore many had brought their offerings to God, and had felt that in so doing they made ample atonement for their sins. They did not rely upon the Redeemer to come, of whom these offerings were only a type. The Lord would now teach them that their sacrifices, in themselves, had no more power or virtue than the serpent of brass, but were, like that, to lead their minds to Christ, the great sin offering...

When we trust God fully, when we rely upon the merits of Jesus as a sin-pardoning Saviour, we shall receive all the help that we can desire...

While we realize our helpless condition without Christ, we are not to yield to discouragement, but rely upon the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Look and live. Jesus has pledged His word; He will save all who come unto Him. Though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, not one who trusts in His merits will be left to perishcolor]." Patriarchs and Prophets,430-432.

This is the 1888 message which was the message by which the Lord was to finish the work upon the earth and cut it short in righteousness if it had been received, believed, and acted upon. The remedy provided for sin was presented in all its simplicty:

"Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited, but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy provided for sin...

"Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendeing it. The only way he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to th sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous (this is justification; and the pardoned soul goes on from grace to grace and from light to a greater light. (This is sanctification)." Review and Herald, Nov.4, 1890. *parenthesis supplied.

The pardoned soul may go on from grace to grace and from strengh to strength as he continually appropriates to himself the merits of Christ's sacrifice. He is clothed with the robe of Christ's righteousness and Christ's righteousness enables him to keep every precept of the law of God.

The message of righteousness by faith in the merits of Christ is beautifully summed up in these words:

"The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Savior: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages, p.347.

It is the third angel's message which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice and attended with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in large measure.

sky

[Woody]

Tired of the merits of Christ as you are with the works of God?

Oh well ... from what I've been told here on this forum ... I am lost and going to burn in Hell. So ... why care what I think. Of course ... it wasn't a personal attack because he does care. He just has a special connection with God about such knowledge. Somehow he got in on the secret and was willing to pass it on to me.

[skyblue888]

Red, this is not a personal attack against you coming from Mark and you know that. By our own words we will be justified or condemned, plain and simple.

sky

[Guest]

Only problem with that is....Mark is not a legalist.

[jasd]

>>Unlike the Hebrew view of perfection, the Greeks had a very narrow and ridged view of perection and the only thing they saw as perfect was a completely perfect cube without the slightest variation.<<

I would like to see the source for the opinion expressed above. I think that, from apparent evidence incorporated into both the Tabernacle and the Parthenon, it seems that the rectangle based on the Fibonacci sequence – may have better represented perfection to those cultures. That said, I believe, rather, we must consider that

the book of Revelation expressed the thoughts of Jesus Christ instead that of either the Hebrews or the Greeks.

Jesus Christ revealed to St John that the New Jerusalem is His bride. [/off-the-cuff remembrance] Seems to me, that a chief cornerstone as capstone is a better verisimilitude of the metaphors Writ provide – representing Him as the Head – than anything that might represent Him as the foot[ing] of the City.