Moderators Kevin H Posted December 5, 2009 Moderators Posted December 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs So which of our doctrines are wrong? Good Question Rudywoofs. I don't see any of the doctrines of our church that are in error. If there are any doctrines of our church that are in error ... I have to wonder why a person would remain in the church. And I would appreciate seeing Biblical evidence that any of our doctrines are in error. IF it was possible that some could exist. I know that some here on this forum believe that wrong doctrines came into our church in 1957 ... but again ... I would like to know which of the 28 Fundamentals are in error. And please present Biblical evidence. Well, the church spent a lot of time crafting the language on the 28. They are purposely written where it can have a few different interpetations. That is why when there was the 27 that the was a book to go along with it to give them a particular direction that the Adventist Thelolgical Society wanted them to be read. But the words about the death of Christ were written so that Evengelical Adventists, ATS, Historic Adventists and those who like what Graham Maxwell teaches could without reservation say those words for what they believe, even though what some of these sub groups mean when they say those words are different than what other sub groups mean when they say those worlds. But again when Robert was accusing me of heresy for appreciating Mrs. White, we are not lost for heresy, we are lost for rejecting Jesus. In 1888 Mrs. White was the most conserned about the spirit between the two sides. Who was or was not preaching heresy was only of secondary importance. We can live with some heresy as long as we are willing to grow. Until it had gotten so far in the way that we were preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of gilboa, our leaders saw no problem with having the hand of fellowship out to trinitarians and non-trinitarians alike. They were conserned about fanaticism, but not too worried about heresy as long as they were not fanitic and willing to grow and not attack the handful of pillers (and even the pillers has some room for different interpetations).
Woody Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible.... So Kevin ... do you agree with Rob's perspective of what you are doing? And you defend it? You would rather use our prophet than the Bible? May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible.... So Kevin ... do you agree with Rob's perspective of what you are doing? And you defend it? You would rather use our prophet than the Bible? Oops, you missed my post where I challenged him to prove that is what I was doing, as I dissagreed with his presumption of my motives and method, then I went on to more interesting topics.
Robert Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Kevin, Do you fully agree with the following? PC- RH PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald DT- 05-07-01 AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness PR- 09 Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.
Woody Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: But again when Robert was accusing me of heresy for appreciating Mrs. White But I don't see where Rob did this. Can you show me? All I saw was this ... Quote: You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible.... May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: But again when Robert was accusing me of heresy for appreciating Mrs. White But I don't see where Rob did this. Can you show me? All I saw was this ... Quote: You go with Ellen as the measuring stick of truth (which is heresy) and I'll go with the Bible.... Paraphrase
Moderators Kevin H Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Kevin, Do you fully agree with the following? PC- RH PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald DT- 05-07-01 AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness PR- 09 Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. Well, how does she and the Bible teach the law of God? God's law is absolute but the application is not absolute. I'm afraid that you look at all the applications and think they are the law itself. She has paraphrased the above in "When we love the world as Jesus has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts." DA 641. Also, once again I encourage you to look at the new understanding of Paul, for a good summery in plane language turn to Jim Fleming's "Acts: New Discoveries of the Early Church" and study out the doctrine of Hell Fire then you can find your quote much more friendlier than you seem to think it is. Let's discuss the Methodist Fleming then we can move on to the Adventist Ellen White, and you can re-evaluate her with a stronger Biblical background and a weaker speculative background.
Woody Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 WELL ... you do take great liberties. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs So which of our doctrines are wrong? Good Question Rudywoofs. I don't see any of the doctrines of our church that are in error. If there are any doctrines of our church that are in error ... I have to wonder why a person would remain in the church. And I would appreciate seeing Biblical evidence that any of our doctrines are in error. IF it was possible that some could exist. Notice in the above that there's nothing about the SDA church's doctrines being wrong. As I explained before, and as Richard pointed out, I'm talking about individuals in the church who teach error. See post#304681. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 God doesn't have any choice in that matter. There is error in this world. Not much that can be done to avoid that ... except for Him to come in the clouds and put an end to all the sin and error in this world. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
oldsailor29 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs So which of our doctrines are wrong? Good Question Rudywoofs. I don't see any of the doctrines of our church that are in error. If there are any doctrines of our church that are in error ... I have to wonder why a person would remain in the church. And I would appreciate seeing Biblical evidence that any of our doctrines are in error. IF it was possible that some could exist. Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry, from His baptism by John the Baptist through His death on the cross. Jesus said, "All who came before me are robbers and thieves." There is ample Biblical evidence. Oh, you don't know where He says that? Well then, you need to study some more. It doesn't matter. Most people disregard what Jesus said anyway. Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Guest Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Joh 10:7-10 I'm not sure what you think this means, but he is not calling his prophets thieves.
oldsailor29 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes not, but to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. Joh 10:7-10 I'm not sure what you think this means, but he is not calling his prophets thieves. It means that no one comes to the Father but by Him, not by His prophets, but by Him. Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Guest Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 I don't think that has ever been in dispute. There is even a text that says that. But that doesn't mean that every doctrine that didn't originate from Jesus during his ministry is wrong.
Rex Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry Our doctrine on the state of the dead did not originate with Jesus during his ministry. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc 9:5 Our Sanctuary doctrine didn't originate with Jesus during his ministry. And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Dan 8:14 Are you saying it's wrong? That's just two of them, I could go on.
Robert Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Kevin, Do you fully agree with the following? PC- RH PT- Advent Review and Sabbath Herald DT- 05-07-01 AT- The Great Standard of Righteousness PR- 09 Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. Well, how does she and the Bible teach the law of God? DO you agree with EGW's statement or not?
olger Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook quoting Ralph Larson The Inquisitorial Procedure The procedure consists of three parts: an “investigation” (see above), some meetings, and the issuance of an ultimatum. According to the ultimatum, the accused historic Adventist leaders are being given twelve months in which to “repent” and bow to the authority of the Inquisitors or suffer the consequences. There is no hint that there will be any fair trial in which the accused might be given an opportunity to defend themselves. They must simply accept the judgment of the Inquisitors as infallible—all of which reminds us of the Catholic Inquisition in Spain. A word about the “meetings” referred to above. They may be represented as “fair hearings,” but they were nothing of the kind. They were only occasions in which the historic Adventist leaders had to spend time responding to barrages of false accusations. Their concerns about apostasy in the church were never considered. Nothing remotely resembling a fair and factual hearing has ever occurred. Well that sounds pretty much horrible! There is a youtube video showing Bill Johnson responding to questions about a supposed "inquisition" back in the 1980's regarding ministers who sided with Des Ford. Johnsson was being grilled by Walter Martin and by John Ankerberg as to whether Pastors were being expelled for siding with Des Ford instead of siding with Ellen White. Johnsson stated that the ONLY question put to the pastors at the time they were defrocked was simply "can you confirm that your views are in harmony with the 27 fundamental beliefs and that you affirm teaching those beliefs from the pulpit". Those who said they could not teach the 27 fundamental beliefs - were relieved of service. Seems like a good rule to me. in Christ, Bob Accountability is a good thing for all of us. As to the video, a friend of mine (Calvin Beisner) also sat in with Walter Martin on a couple Bill Johnsson dialogues. Calvin is accepting of Adventists. g "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators Gerr Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry, from His baptism by John the Baptist through His death on the cross. Jesus said, "All who came before me are robbers and thieves." There is ample Biblical evidence. Oh, you don't know where He says that? Well then, you need to study some more. It doesn't matter. Most people disregard what Jesus said anyway. Without the previous truths in the OT, Jesus would have no leg to stand on. He would be no better than Budha or Confucius.
Twilight Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Good Question Rudywoofs. I don't see any of the doctrines of our church that are in error. If there are any doctrines of our church that are in error ... I have to wonder why a person would remain in the church. And I would appreciate seeing Biblical evidence that any of our doctrines are in error. IF it was possible that some could exist. Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry' date=' from His baptism by John the Baptist through His death on the cross. Jesus said, "All who came before me are robbers and thieves." There is ample Biblical evidence. Oh, you don't know where He says that? Well then, you need to study some more. It doesn't matter. Most people disregard what Jesus said anyway. [/quote'] This text is reffering to the fact that there is only one way into salvation. This is by the blood (merits) of Christ. Jesus Himself sanctioned the prophets. What where the prophets teaching? That the only way into salvation was through the blood (merits) of Jesus. So they would not be condemned for pointing to the same gate. What is being condemned here is the idea that there is any "other" way into salvation, other than through the merits of Christ. This is the truth Moses taught, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Paul, Ellen White... All are in agreement. So to reject them, is to reject Jesus Himself. As they are His representatives and speak on His behalf... Jesus warned us what would happen to us if we stoned the prophets... I see a lot of stoning going on. When you stone the prophets, you stone Jesus. God bless, Mark The best wisdom is always second hand...
Twilight Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook You said a mouthful there Steve. All true. AMEN!! [/quote'] Guys...I've been where you are at....Right now your under a yoke of bondage...you have no peace, no assurance, just work, work, work.... Rob I have peace, assurance, joy, love, patience, faith and victory in Christ Rob. Do you have all of this? Mark The best wisdom is always second hand...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Kevin H Well, how does she and the Bible teach the law of God?[/quote'] DO you agree with EGW's statement or not? Don't you believe it? Here is how she says it can be done. {1SM 394.3} "In order to be candidates for heaven we must meet the requirement of the law: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself" (Luke 10:27). We can do this only as we grasp by faith the righteousness of Christ. By beholding Jesus we receive a living, expanding principle in the heart, and the Holy Spirit carries on the work, and the believer advances from grace to grace, from strength to strength, from character to character. He conforms to the image of Christ, until in spiritual growth he attains unto the measure of the full stature in Christ Jesus. Thus Christ makes an end of the curse of sin, and sets the believing soul free from its action and effect. {1SM 395.1} Christ alone is able to do this, for "in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being 396 tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted" (Hebrews 2:17, 18). Reconciliation means that every barrier between the soul and God is removed, and that the sinner realizes what the pardoning love of God means. By reason of the sacrifice made by Christ for fallen men, God can justly pardon the transgressor who accepts the merits of Christ. Christ was the channel through which the mercy, love, and righteousness might flow from the heart of God to the heart of the sinner. "He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). God's Standard Has Not Changed.--The gospel of good news was not to be interpreted as allowing men to live in continued rebellion against God by transgressing His just and holy law. Why cannot those who claim to understand the Scriptures, see that God's requirement under grace is just the same He made in Eden--perfect obedience to His law. In the judgment, God will ask those who profess to be Christians, Why did you claim to believe in My Son, and continue to transgress My law? Who required this at your hands--to trample upon My rules of righteousness? "Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." The gospel of the New Testament is not the Old Testament standard lowered to meet the sinner and save him in his sins. God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {YRP 60.1} In order to meet the requirement of the law, our faith must grasp the righteousness of Christ, accepting it as our righteousness. Through union with Christ, through acceptance of His righteousness by faith, we may be qualified to work the works of God, to be colaborers with Christ. If you are willing to drift along with the current of evil, and do not cooperate with the heavenly agencies in restraining transgression in your family, and in the church, in order that everlasting righteousness may be brought in, you do not have faith. {YRP 60.2} Faith works by love and purifies the soul. Through faith the Holy Spirit works in the heart to create holiness therein; but this cannot be done unless the human agent will work with Christ. We can be fitted for heaven only through the work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart; for we must have Christ's righteousness as our credentials if we would find access to the Father. In order that we may have the righteousness of Christ, we need daily to be transformed by the influence of the Spirit, to be a partaker of the divine nature. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to elevate the taste, to sanctify the heart, to ennoble the whole man. {ST, July 18, 1878 par. 16} I was astonished at the position taken by Elder Brown on the question of the law. It seemed incredible that one who professed to be a Bible student, and teacher, should affirm that no man ever kept the law of God, or could keep it. This is the fearful position taken by many ministers, in order to get rid of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Such teachers throw a very unfavorable light upon the character of our heavenly Father, when they represent him as giving men a code of laws which is the foundation of all civilized national and domestic government, yet which it is impossible that men ever have or ever can obey. Such sentiments expressed by public teachers lead men, not only to disregard the divine law, but to trample upon it as an arbitrary requirement which they are justified in rebelling against. The teachers of such pernicious doctrines will not be in an enviable position when they shall meet the great Lawgiver over his broken law.
Stewart (SDA) Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Do you fully agree with the following? ... Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come..." I would like to add my name, and say, yes I fully agree with those words. And yet those words should not stand alone. It is line upon line, precept upon precept. "None will be condemned for not heeding light and knowledge that they never had, and they could not obtain... Men will not be judged for light they have never had... [but all] will be judged according to the light that has come to them. (5BC 1145) Yes I agree, "complete obedience [to the light that has truly come a person] is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law." Living so that our conscience is void of offense to God and man, is not a tiresome, grievous labor, is it? God forbid that we have, in conscience, wounded ourselves, and pierced ourselves through so often that we have lost all hope. For "as pertaining to the conscience" (Heb 9:9) we may -- and indeed we must -- stand clear before God. SC
oldsailor29 Posted December 6, 2009 Posted December 6, 2009 Quote: Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry, from His baptism by John the Baptist through His death on the cross. Jesus said, "All who came before me are robbers and thieves." There is ample Biblical evidence. Oh, you don't know where He says that? Well then, you need to study some more. It doesn't matter. Most people disregard what Jesus said anyway. Without the previous truths in the OT, Jesus would have no leg to stand on. He would be no better than Budha or Confucius. I am appalled that anyone would say that God in the flesh was no better than mortal men like Buddha or Confucius. I get the idea from your post that you may be an existentialist. Existentialism is the theology of the devil, and ya got the cart before the horse. Without Jesus, Moses wouldn't have any basis of truth. And neither would any other Bible writer. Our faith in Jesus is the only place we can find truth. Moses gave the people manna and they all died. But Jesus gives us the living bread. If we eat his bread we will live forever. This is a quotation from Jesus which means that the teachings from Moses are dead, but the teachings of Jesus will bring us into everlasting life. Prs God, frm whm blssngs flw http://www.zoelifestyle.com/jmccall
Moderators Gerr Posted December 6, 2009 Moderators Posted December 6, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Quote: Any and all doctrine is wrong which did not originate from Jesus during His ministry, from His baptism by John the Baptist through His death on the cross. Jesus said, "All who came before me are robbers and thieves." There is ample Biblical evidence. Oh, you don't know where He says that? Well then, you need to study some more. It doesn't matter. Most people disregard what Jesus said anyway. Without the previous truths in the OT, Jesus would have no leg to stand on. He would be no better than Budha or Confucius. I am appalled that anyone would say that God in the flesh was no better than mortal men like Buddha or Confucius. I get the idea from your post that you may be an existentialist. Existentialism is the theology of the devil, and ya got the cart before the horse. Without Jesus, Moses wouldn't have any basis of truth. And neither would any other Bible writer. Our faith in Jesus is the only place we can find truth. Moses gave the people manna and they all died. But Jesus gives us the living bread. If we eat his bread we will live forever. This is a quotation from Jesus which means that the teachings from Moses are dead, but the teachings of Jesus will bring us into everlasting life. I suggest you re-read my post.
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