Rick Warren ...

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I am amazed that our people will buy and propagate books that might have a gem or two scattered in them, but when an SDA writer spends more than a decade researching endtime truth: the brethren don't read it; they don't promote it; and they are even fearful of it. There has to be something wrong in Adventism if we are afraid to look at what our own people discover, but on the other hand have no fear of drinking at the world's cistern.

"Suffer not yourselves to open the lids of a book that is questionable. There is a hellish fascination in the literature of Satan. It is the powerful battery by which he tears down a simple religious faith. Never feel that you are strong enough to read infidel books; for they contain a poison like that of asps. They can do you no good, and will assuredly do you harm. In reading them, you are inhaling the miasmas of hell. They will be to your soul like a corrupt stream of water, defiling the mind, keeping it in the mazes of skepticism, and making it earthly and sensual. These books are written by men whom Satan employs as his agents; and by this means he designs to confuse the mind, withdraw the affections from God, and rob your Creator of the reverence and gratitude which his works demand." {YI, September 10, 1884 par. 6}

"The mind needs to be trained, and its desires controlled and brought into subjection to the will of God." {YI, September 10, 1884 par. 7}

"Instead of being dwarfed and deformed by feeding on the vile trash which Satan provides, it should have wholesome food, which will give strength and vigor." {YI, September 10, 1884 par. 8}

[/quote']

Amen!

[hch]

I don't have a problem with Pastor Rick Warren. I read his "Purpose" book and it was pretty good.

While listening to Christian talk radio, they had a very poor opinion of Rick Warren. The gist of what they said was that churches that applied his methodology grew in numbers, but the over all spirituality declined. By focusing on ministering to the members "needs," like grief and divorce counseling (and the like for example) there was less preaching of Christ and sound doctrine. As a results, they claimed that the solid Christian foundation was eroded and a class of superficial "Christians" took control of the churches. And when the Christ centered members left, the finances crumbled. The missionary minded members that left had been paying the bills and the self-centered members had been going along for the ride.

So the discussion goes full circle. If Rick Warren's teachings are so good, but they alienate Church members so much so that the alienated members leave with their wallets and those that are left to take the "free ride" are not willing to pay for the privilege - are allot of joy seekers left without sponsors?

[Gerr]

There's a fine line we have to walk. On the one hand we are to be "in the world but not of the world." Mix the salt with whatever is being salted but must not loss its savor.

The only way we can reach others is to mingle with them. On the other hand, I am reminded of what happened to the Israelites at Baal-peor. No doubt when the Midianites invited the Israelits, many of them probably thought it was a nice way to build bridges.

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I don't have a problem with Pastor Rick Warren. I read his "Purpose" book and it was pretty good.

While listening to Christian talk radio, they had a very poor opinion of Rick Warren. The gist of what they said was that churches that applied his methodology grew in numbers, but the over all spirituality declined. By focusing on ministering to the members "needs," like grief and divorce counseling (and the like for example) there was less preaching of Christ and sound doctrine. As a results, they claimed that the solid Christian foundation was eroded and a class of superficial "Christians" took control of the churches. And when the Christ centered members left, the finances crumbled. The missionary minded members that left had been paying the bills and the self-centered members had been going along for the ride.

So the discussion goes full circle. If Rick Warren's teachings are so good, but they alienate Church members so much so that the alienated members leave with their wallets and those that are left to take the "free ride" are not willing to pay for the privilege - are allot of joy seekers left without sponsors?

I've looked at the purpose driven movement a bit and its disturbing to me. I agree with what the radio message said in general. Many SDA pastors and leaders have flocked to Saddle back over the years to look at their church growth methods.

When Warren first started, he and others did surveys to list the respondents "felt needs" and then created programs to attract new members with the information. These were mostly human based so-called needs; not what the Bible said were really mans needs. So every workshop you can think of was added, and it is also known as "the church that rocks" as Warren makes no apology for the power driven style rock music, and the non-stop theatrical displays.

In his book, The Purpose Driven Life, which has sold 23 million copies,Warren uses 15 different Bible translations to promote his views. Many illogical interpretations are made that in effect creates a 'feel good, all fluff" false gospel and church manual. The sinner, is simply invited to bow his head and say,"Jesus I accept you and receive you." Then its "welcome to the kingdom of God."

The respondents life of sin and rebellion is not addressed, nothing is taught in regards to confession of sin, repentance, and keeping the commandments. These teachings are also given in some churches in Adventism.

Robert Shuler, of Crystal Cathedral fame, is Warrens mentor. Warren also has connections to well known occult personalities.

I believe this and other mega-church growth phenomenons to be linked to false revivals that the GC speaks of which are also manifested in the worldwide ecumenical movements that gravitate towards Rome.

These movements will also form a part of apostate protestantism that will work to enable the upcoming Sunday law that will usher in the mark of the beast, the loud cry/latter-rain events that signal the end of all things and the return of Christ.

The SDA theologian, Herbert Douglass, has written an excellent book entitled; Truth Matters,that reviews Warrens movement.

[Gail]

I hear what you are saying, but I know too many Adventist parents who were so strict about what they would read or allow (or not) their children to read (or eat, or watch, etc etc) that either they but more often their children would reject the WHOLE message and RUN to the world.

For myself, I have come to the same conclusion as Pam, but that was not because somebody in the church branded a writer as heretical so much as recognizing the effect that such and such a music or writing has on my spirituality. I don't think we are taught discernment or to seek discernment as much as people tell others that such an item is BAD. Because that is all a person will hear, BAD BAD BAD

Our denomination has lost a whole generation because of legalism. We need to remember that lesson.

[Gail]

Our message is an awesome one. I think that our young folks can REALLY benefit from it. But when someone knocks down what blessings they have gotten so far, why would they want to listen at all?

And yet I see that happening all the time here.

[Gail]

Re: building bridges

When we share what unique blessings we have compared to other churches, such as our knowledge on health and the sanctuary message and the JOY that a relationship with Jesus brings, won't that build bridges?

Or will blasting them with continual negativity draw others and build bridges?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I am amazed that our people will buy and propagate books that might have a gem or two scattered in them, but when an SDA writer spends more than a decade researching endtime truth: the brethren don't read it; they don't promote it; and they are even fearful of it. There has to be something wrong in Adventism if we are afraid to look at what our own people discover, but on the other hand have no fear of drinking at the world's cistern.[/quote']

It boggled my mind when our SDA churches used to send gobs of observers to the Willow Creek megachurch to learn their methodology while the Lord's counsels in the red books were ignored! I am sure there are things we can learn from others, but it shouldn't be at the expense of ignoring God's instructions.

Our own medical school and hospitals were too intimidated to put to practice the health principles given by revelation and now you have non-SDAs like Campbell, Essestyn, Barnard & others running with the same principles and have become authorities & famous for it.

[Woody]

Quote:

It boggled my mind when our SDA churches used to send gobs of observers to the Willow Creek megachurch to learn their methodology while the Lord's counsels in the red books were ignored! I am sure there are things we can learn from others, but it shouldn't be at the expense of ignoring God's instructions.

Hey ... I'm the first one to admit that I like 'RED' ... but there are other colors in the rainbow.

[lazarus]

There has been alot of "heat" posted about Rick Warren but I'm still waiting for some "light" i.e. quotes that Illustrate his "new-agey" practices, and other criticisms that have been posted.

There are some things I do not subscribe to but this wholesale condemnation by some lacks real evidence so far!

Richard Foster's celebration of the disciplines is probably one of the most powerful and Biblical books there is on Spirituality. every Adventist should read it.

Quote:

While listening to Christian talk radio, they had a very poor opinion of Rick Warren. The gist of what they said was that churches that applied his methodology grew in numbers, but the over all spirituality declined. By focusing on ministering to the members "needs," like grief and divorce counseling (and the like for example) there was less preaching of Christ and sound doctrine. As a results, they claimed that the solid Christian foundation was eroded and a class of superficial "Christians" took control of the churches. And when the Christ centered members left, the finances crumbled. The missionary minded members that left had been paying the bills and the self-centered members had been going along for the ride.

The vast majority of dead or dying churches (which includes SDA churches) are not that way because they have adopted new ideas and have not money. Its is often becasue they had NOT adopted any new ideas and spend all that oney one buildings, potlucks and keeping the "club" going.

As for Christian talk radio not liking rick Warren it's probably because his politics don't match the political prejudices of the religious right

[lazarus]

Here's some more from the class I teach on discipleship using Warren's material.

Still trying to find SDA material that is as clear, comprehensive, Biblical and easy for all ages and levels of education to understand.

THE PRIORITY OF MINISTRY

Why should I be interested? I think this is important right at the front because we're going to teach you how to discover your ministry but before that we're going to discover why even make the effort. Why do I even need to know this?

Ten Foundational Truths. These are things the Bible teaches about ministry.

1. I'VE BEEN CREATED FOR MINISTRY.

Ephesians 2:10, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." We were created in Christ Jesus to do good works. You were created for ministry. Most people don't know that. You were created for ministry, good works, that God prepared in advance for you to do. You were made for ministry. People say, "Why am I here on earth?" You're made for ministry.

2. I'VE BEEN SAVED FOR MINISTRY.

2 Timothy 1:9 (Living Bible) "It is He who saved us and chose us for his holy work, not because we deserved it but because that was his plan long before the world began."

3. I'VE BEEN CALLED INTO MINISTRY.

Galatians 1:15, "God, in his grace, chose me even before I was born, and called me to serve him." Ephesians 4:1 "I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received."

People ask me all the time, "How many ministers do you have at Saddleback?" I say about 4,000. I know what they mean but they're wrong. There's a difference between a minister and a pastor. If someone says, "How many pastors do you have?" or "How many full time staff members do you have?" that's one thing, but ministers? All of us are ministers. The Bible teaches that.

4. I'VE BEEN GIFTED FOR MINISTRY

1 Peter 4:10 "God has given each of you some special abilities [circle "special abilities"] be sure to use them to help each other, passing on to others God's many kinds of blessing." We're going to talk tonight about how to discover your gifts.

5. I'VE BEEN AUTHORIZED FOR MINISTRY.

2 Corinthians 5:20 "We are therefore Christ's ambassadors." An ambassador is someone who represents royalty or a throne or government. The Bible says you're an ambassador on the earth for Jesus Christ. When someone comes up to you and says, "So you are minister of Jesus Christ, huh?" You say, "Yes, I am!" without any shame or lack of confidence. They say, "Who do you think you are, anyway?" You say, "I've been authorized by Jesus Christ." it's not because you deserve it. You don't. It's not because I deserve it. I don't deserve to be in the ministry. I don't deserve even to be a Christian. But it's all God's grace. I have been authorized and you have been authorized to minister to other people.

6. I'M COMMANDED TO MINISTER.

Jesus said, "You attitude must [circle "must"] be like my own, for I, the Messiah, did not come to be served, but to serve." Jesus said it's not an option. A non ministering Christian is not obeying God. He expect us to be like Jesus Christ. To Archippus Paul says, "Take heed to the ministry you've received from the Lord and fulfill it." Circle "fulfill". The secret of a fulfilled life is to find the ministry for which God made you and get right in the middle. You're going to find fulfillment there more than any other area of your life, because it's what God made you to be. He said, you lose your life to find it. I'm commanded to minister.

7. I'M TO BE PREPARED FOR MINISTRY.

Ephesians 4:11-12 "God gave pastors and teachers to prepare God's people for works of ministry so that the Body of Christ may be built up." This verse scares me sometimes because the Bible teaches real clearly that I'm going to be evaluated as a pastor on how well I prepare you. That's why I said I take this class very seriously. More than what I say on Sunday morning, I'm going to be evaluated on how I prepare God's people for ministry.

8. THE BODY OF CHRIST NEEDS MY MINISTRY.

1 Corinthians 12:27 "All of you together are the one body of Christ and each of you is a separate and necessary [circle separate and necessary] part of it." When I don't fulfill the ministry God has given me, you get cheated. When you don't fulfill the ministry God has given you, I get cheated and other people get cheated. We're all a necessary part.

9. I AM ACCOUNTABLE FOR MINISTRY.

Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account [circle "account"] of himself to God." There are many, many parables in the New Testament -- like the parable of the talents. God talks about how the man gave one man one talent, one five talents and one ten talents and came back a couple of years later and said, "What did you do with it?" The one who hadn't done anything with it, he said, "You're wicked and lazy!" If God has given me a talent, it is a sin not to use it. One day I'm going to stand before God and I'm going to give an account of the talents, the gifts and the abilities that He's given me.

10. I WILL BE REWARDED FOR MINISTRY.

"Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not men, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward." God says you're going to be rewarded in heaven on the basis of your ministry. Matthew 25:23 "Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your Master's happiness."

[hch]

Re: building bridges

When we share what unique blessings we have compared to other churches, such as our knowledge on health and the sanctuary message and the JOY that a relationship with Jesus brings, won't that build bridges?

Or will blasting them with continual negativity draw others and build bridges?

It is true that we are in the world and must not become "OF The World" But that is a balancing act that few manage well. The Jews did not do a good job. They were extremists falling out of the proverbial boat on one side then the other.

The Church of Rome did not do well either. Now the Protestant Churches are following suit.

And should God's people think that the corruptions that have entered the Churches since 1844 have entered all the churches but ours?

Truth is progressive. If we looked more at the truth instead of the watered down things that we do look at, we would be farther along in our trek to the kingdom.

But we are where we are until something moves us to seek Jesus with all of our hearts or He comes first - ready or not!

[lazarus]

Quote:

The respondents life of sin and rebellion is not addressed, nothing is taught in regards to confession of sin, repentance, and keeping the commandments. These teachings are also given in some churches in Adventism.

Really????

Here's more from Warren's discipleship class. It may not be as in depth as we do it some times. It's not meant to be.

Why then aren't most people really happy? What's the problem?

Here's the problem: Man has a natural desire to be boss and to ignore God's principles for living. You can see this all the time in our society around us. You hear phrases like, "Look out for number one... Do your own thing... If it feels good, do it regardless of what God says." In other words, "It's my life and I'll do what I please" or as the great theologian Frank Sinatra sang, "I did it my way." We want to be our own boss. We don't want God to be our boss. We want to be our own boss. The Bible calls this attitude sin.

In the word "sin", circle the middle letter. The center of sin is "I". I want to do my own thing. I want to be my own boss. I want to live my own life the way I want to regardless of God. The Bible says we've all had this problem.

"All of us like sheep have gone astray and each of us have turned to his own way." Today we'd say, "All of us have gone astray and everybody's done their own thing."

"If we say we never sin we're only fooling ourselves and we refuse to accept the truth."

The sad part is that sin breaks our close relationship to God and it causes us to fear God and to try to live our lives outside His will. It's amazing how most people are afraid of God. If you're standing around talking with a bunch of friends at work and you bring up God, all of a sudden they freeze up. They get nervous. It's because people are afraid of God. Why? Because they want to be their own boss and they know that the relationship between them and God is broken. They may not understand it but they feel it.

What does God want me to do? Four things:

1. Admit. Here's what it means to be a Christian. You may be a church member. You may have known about God all your life. You may have wondered, "Am I really a Christian?" Maybe you've had doubts about it. You can know for sure tonight. I don't want any of you to leave here tonight without knowing for sure that you've settled this issue. First you admit. I admit that God has not been first place in my life and I ask Him to forgive my sins. "If we confess our sins He's faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from every wrong."

2. Believe. I believe that Jesus Christ died to pay for my sins and that He rose on Easter and is alive today. "If you confess that Jesus is your Lord, and you believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Circle the word "will". It doesn't say you might be. It doesn't say you can hope to be. It says you will.

Many Christians go through all their life wondering, "Have I really given my life to Christ? Am I really going to go to heaven?" They doubt their salvation over and over. You need to settle it tonight. If you call on the name of the Lord He says, "I will". God will not lie. It doesn't matter how you feel. Feelings come and go. I stood one day in front of a bunch of people and said two words to Kay that changed my life, "I do". At the time I had no idea what I was doing. The rest of my life I'm working out the implications of those two words, "I do". As Kay and I were driving off on our honeymoon I said, "I don't feel married." She said, "It doesn't matter whether you feel it or not. You're married!"

There are some days I don't feel saved. Does that ever happen to you? There are some days I don't feel like a Christian. Feelings come and go. What matters is God says, "I will save you if you do what I say and invite Me into your heart."

3. Accept God's free gift of salvation. Don't try to earn it. "It is by grace you are saved through faith and it is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God. Not of works so no one could boast." Can you imagine, if you could earn your way to heaven, what a cruddy place heaven would be? If you could earn your way to heaven, everybody up there would be bragging on how they got there. "I got here because I helped a little old lady across the street!" "I got here because I was like Mother Teresa." No, you don't get there on your own effort. You get there just by accepting God's free gift.

Page 8. Our relationship to Christ is not restored by anything we do, but on the basis on what Jesus Christ already did for us on Calvary.

4. Invite Jesus Christ to come into my life and be the director or Lord of my life. Have you seen these stores that say, "Under new management"? I think every new Christian should wear that sign for a month. That's what it means to be a Christian. I'm under new management. No longer am I calling the shots in my life. Jesus Christ is the manager of my life. He's the CEO. He's the President, the boss-man. He's the director of my life

[Woody]

QR frame:

Thank you Laz. Good comments.

[hch]

Quote:

The vast majority of dead or dying churches (which includes SDA churches) are not that way because they have adopted new ideas and have not money. Its is often becasue they had NOT adopted any new ideas and spend all that oney one buildings, potlucks and keeping the "club" going.

Jesus summed it up in Revelation when he said, that His people had left their first love.

The SDA pioneers had a zeal to know where they were in Bible prophecy and to tell the world that Christ was Coming soon and very soon. But we, the great-grandchildren of the pioneers, do not have the zeal to warn our dying world that death is eminent. We have been hearing the message so long that our ears are dull of hearing.

Though the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy are full of fresh material that everyone needs to know, we display the most indifferent attitude. If we were the people of the book, we would stir up the embers and fan the flames to get the light shining. But that would disturb our comfort zone. So we settle for rummaging through the garbage heaps of popular religious teachers for a morsel tainted by worldliness and humanism and leave the feast in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy untouched.

Surely it is well written that wisdom is known of her children.

loudcry.2007@gmail.com

[LifeHiscost]

Richard Foster's celebration of the disciplines is probably one of the most powerful and Biblical books there is on Spirituality. every Adventist should read it.

Don't you think it would be better to get spirituality from the original source as opposed to what others say about the original source.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."Romans 10:17 NKJV

Joy!!

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Richard Foster's celebration of the disciplines is probably one of the most powerful and Biblical books there is on Spirituality. every Adventist should read it.

Are you saying that people should not read anything besides the Bible? Foster quotes extensively from the Bible as do many other good Christian writers.

[lazarus]

Who are these people (the we) that you talk about? Are you saying the Adventist members, Pastors, Administrators leave the Bible and SOP untouched? Are you talking about your church and your Pastor?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Are you saying that people should not read anything besides the Bible? Foster quotes extensively from the Bible as do many other good Christian writers.

Guess we can just trash the ABC . But then Gail would be out of a job. I sure hope that is not what LifeHiscost is promoting.

[lazarus]

Guess we can just trash the ABC . But then Gail would be out of a job. I sure hope that is not what LifeHiscost is promoting.

Some would want us to trash the ABC believe it or not. There should only be KJV Bibles and Ellen White books and only those in print when she was alive!!! Oops I forgot the Clear Word Bible.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I really believe that if you find something worthwhile in Rick Warren's book, use it. Toss the rest away. As I said, for me with my background, I found his book disturbing and I could not keep it.

I don't want to be the "book police".... there are a lot of good non-SDA books out there. I have a number of Max Lucado's books. I don't agree with everything he says, but I find I am able to pick out the good and throw away what is bad. I, for some reason, could not do that with Rick Warren's book. I don't know why.

[Woody]

Amazing Laz. Just Amazing. Guess that in addition to Gail ... that would put all Christian authors out of business. What about all those conservative SDA internet talking heads? What about 3ABN and the Hope Channel? Do we do away with ALL of them?

[LifeHiscost]

Amazing Laz. Just Amazing. Guess that in addition to Gail ... that would put all Christian authors out of business. What about all those conservative SDA internet talking heads? What about 3ABN and the Hope Channel? Do we do away with ALL of them?

Surprising what a feeding frenzy develops when the idea of the Original Source as being the best possible Source is suggested.

I'm sure it has something to do with below.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8 NKJV

Joy!

[Steve Billiter]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Amazing Laz. Just Amazing. Guess that in addition to Gail ... that would put all Christian authors out of business. What about all those conservative SDA internet talking heads? What about 3ABN and the Hope Channel? Do we do away with ALL of them?

Surprising what a feeding frenzy develops when the idea of the Original Source as being the best possible Source is suggested.

I'm sure it has something to do with below.

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour." 1 Peter 5:8 NKJV

Joy!

What really amazes me is how some people just take things automatically to the next level.For me personally, if a ministry has some thing good to offer me that lines up Biblically and the topic presented is high on my priority list and I can learn and or be encouraged to "come up higher," then I go for it.

Any person or ministry that teaches errors I usually have nothing to do with them, unless they want to discuss theology non-combatively, with an open mind. On occasion, I have found Lighthouse Trails, the Sunday, oriented internet magazine quite informative upon contemplative spirituality topics. Too bad the Ohio Conference of 7th Day Adventists made their list for bringing in speakers such as the high occultist, Leonard Sweet.

"Do we do away with all of them?"

No, thats the Lord's job. We can avoid them, or at best expose them.

The devil is most certainly a roaring lion, who has destructive power as one stays on his hunting range.

Sorceries and false doctrines abound everywhere, medicating the mind as those who are deceived become drunk on the wine of Babylon. Without a solid knowledge of Bible truth and a resolve to obey that truth, many will be snared and taken.

[hch]