Character change pre-resurrection?

[Twilight]

There has been the view presented that character does not change at death/resurrection.

Can this idea be shown from the scripture alone?

Mark :-)

PS.

Please only use the bible to validate any arguments for and against.

SOP not permitted in this thread. (As an exercise).

[Robert]

Luke 12:33 Give what property you have in exchange for money, and give the money to the poor; make for yourselves money-bags which will not get old, wealth stored up in heaven which will be yours for ever, where thieves will not come nor worms put it to destruction. 34 For where your wealth is, there will your heart be.

The word "heart" is a metaphor for the desires of the mind. That is character. It is your mind-set.

[Gerr]

There has been the view presented that character does not change at death/resurrection.

Can this idea be shown from the scripture alone?

Mark :-)

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done." Revd 22:11-12 ESV.

19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.6 The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Lk 16:19-31). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Twilight]

I still think that is a little vague Gerry.

Imagine you were talking to someone who knew very little of the bible.

How would you bring this point across?

[John317]

Quote:

Twilight: I still think that is a little vague Gerry.

Imagine you were talking to someone who knew very little of the bible.

How would you bring this point across?

I would add the following verses to those that Gerry posted:

Romans 2:3-11

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? [4] Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? [5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; [6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds: [7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: [8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, [9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; [10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: [11] For there is no respect of persons with God.

2 Peter 1:5-11

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so [iN THIS WAY]an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

I thought of Lazarus and the Rich Man as well.

I agree with Twilight's comment, about this being a bit vague. This is what I've been working on in my own mind, trying to tighten things up so that it would make sense to someone who doesn't already think in these terms.

Here's a consideration. There are many texts which deal with the judgment, and I would say it's evident that what's really being judged is our character. But if someone were to make the argument that this isn't dealing with character, but with performance, how would one address this?

[Twilight]

I thought of Lazarus and the Rich Man as well.

Here's a consideration. There are many texts which deal with the judgment, and I would say it's evident that what's really being judged is our character. But if someone were to make the argument that this isn't dealing with character, but with performance, how would one address this?

Good question. :-)

[karl]

If God resurrects us with different characters than we have at death, He will not be resurrecting us. He will be resurrecting somebody else.

[John317]

Yes, and also, if God is simply going to change our characters to be what He wants, He could change everyone's characters so all can be saved. He could even change Satan's character if He wanted. But the point is, God isn't like that. He respects our choices and refuses to change them. He refuses to make us into someone other than who we are because of our own decisions, good or bad. In the final analysis, the cross is proof of just how serious God is about guaranteeing the freedom of all His intelligent creatures to choose.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree, but is there anything from Scripture which tells us this? Or is it something we simply need to infer?

[teresaq]

and yet, we are told, especially the last paragraph...

Quote:

It is for you to yield up your will to the will of Jesus Christ; and as you do this, God will immediately take possession and work in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Your whole nature will then be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ, and even your thoughts will be subject to Him. You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, your life will be hid with Christ in God and allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from God that will hold you fast to His strength; and a new life, even the life of living faith, will be possible to you. {5T 513.4}

Will you not without delay place yourself in right relation to God? Will you not say, "I will give my will to Jesus, and I will do it now," and from this moment be wholly on the Lord's side? Disregard custom and the strong clamoring of appetite and passion. Give Satan no chance to say: "You are a wretched hypocrite." Close the door so that Satan will not thus accuse and dishearten you. Say, "I will believe, I do believe that God is my helper," and you will find that you are triumphant in God. By steadfastly keeping the will on the Lord's side, every emotion will be brought into captivity to the will of Jesus. You will then find your feet on solid rock. It will take, at times, every particle of will power which you possess; but it is God that is working for you, and you will come forth from the molding process a vessel unto honor. {5T 514.1}

Talk faith. Keep on God's side of the line. Set not your foot on the enemy's side, and the Lord will be your helper. He will do for you that which it is not possible for you to do for yourself. The result will be that you will become "like a cedar in Lebanon." Your life will be noble, and your works will be wrought in God. There will be in you a power, an earnestness, and a simplicity that will make you a polished instrument in the hands of God. {5T 514.2}

You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}

our freedom would appear to depend on whom we give our will to...

[karl]

The Bible does not speak of a character change at resurrection. It does speak of overcomers being given the crown of life, which would be in favor of character change prior to resurrection.

In Rev. 2:10,11 Jesus says, "Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you THE CROWN OF LIFE. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death."

James 1:12: "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive THE CROWN OF LIFE that God has promised to those that love him."

[teresaq]

I agree, but is there anything from Scripture which tells us this? Or is it something we simply need to infer?

[Twilight]

and yet, we are told, especially the last paragraph...

Quote:

It is for you to yield up your will to the will of Jesus Christ; and as you do this, God will immediately take possession and work in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Your whole nature will then be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ, and even your thoughts will be subject to Him. You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, your life will be hid with Christ in God and allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from God that will hold you fast to His strength; and a new life, even the life of living faith, will be possible to you. {5T 513.4}

Will you not without delay place yourself in right relation to God? Will you not say, "I will give my will to Jesus, and I will do it now," and from this moment be wholly on the Lord's side? Disregard custom and the strong clamoring of appetite and passion. Give Satan no chance to say: "You are a wretched hypocrite." Close the door so that Satan will not thus accuse and dishearten you. Say, "I will believe, I do believe that God is my helper," and you will find that you are triumphant in God. By steadfastly keeping the will on the Lord's side, every emotion will be brought into captivity to the will of Jesus. You will then find your feet on solid rock. It will take, at times, every particle of will power which you possess; but it is God that is working for you, and you will come forth from the molding process a vessel unto honor. {5T 514.1}

Talk faith. Keep on God's side of the line. Set not your foot on the enemy's side, and the Lord will be your helper. He will do for you that which it is not possible for you to do for yourself. The result will be that you will become "like a cedar in Lebanon." Your life will be noble, and your works will be wrought in God. There will be in you a power, an earnestness, and a simplicity that will make you a polished instrument in the hands of God. {5T 514.2}

You need to drink daily at the fountain of truth, that you may understand the secret of pleasure and joy in the Lord. But you must remember that your will is the spring of all your actions. This will, that forms so important a factor in the character of man, was at the Fall given into the control of Satan; and he has ever since been working in man to will and to do of his own pleasure, but to the utter ruin and misery of man. But the infinite sacrifice of God in giving Jesus, His beloved Son, to become a sacrifice for sin, enables Him to say, without violating one principle of His government: "Yield yourself up to Me; give Me that will; take it from the control of Satan, and I will take possession of it; then I can work in you to will and to do of My good pleasure." When He gives you the mind of Christ, your will becomes as His will, and your character is transformed to be like Christ's character. Is it your purpose to do God's will? Do you wish to obey the Scriptures? "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." {5T 515.1}

our freedom would appear to depend on whom we give our will to...

No SOP please Teresa. :-)

[Twilight]

We should be able to show all of our "views" from scripture. :-)

[Twilight]

The Bible does not speak of a character change at resurrection. It does speak of overcomers being given the crown of life, which would be in favor of character change prior to resurrection.

In Rev. 2:10,11 Jesus says, "Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you THE CROWN OF LIFE. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death."

James 1:12: "Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive THE CROWN OF LIFE that God has promised to those that love him."

But something is dealt with at the resurrection:

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

The flesh is changed at the resurrection.

We have sin in our flesh:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

That sin, it seems remains until the second coming.

Now many put this forward as an argument that "character" is changed at the resurrection, when in fact, it is the very "flesh" itself that is changed, so that any trace of hereditary sin is removed.

But that still does not give a clear scripture that our character will not be changed at the resurrection.

Mark :-)

[Woody]

Quote:

Karl: "The Bible does not speak of a character change at resurrection."

A study of the word 'corrupt' might be helpful:

Quote:

The inhabitants of earth are growing more and more corrupt" 2SG 228

Quote:

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God" {1SM 344.2}

Websters Dictionary:

cor·rupt

–adjective

1.guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge.

2.debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil: a corrupt society.

1 Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

WHEN does the corruption stop? Answer: At the second coming when we are changed.

1 John 3:2

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"The pretension to sinless perfection at any time in this earthly life is the root of spiritual pride and self-righteousness . . . Salvation by grace alone means that absolute perfection and sinlessness cannot be realized here and now." Leaflet Is Perfection Possible?, p. 11, 12

"Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

[Twilight]

There is a distinct difference between having sin in our flesh.

And having a good character.

God will change our flesh at the second coming, not our character.

[Tom Wetmore]

What is character? Where does it reside? How do you know your own character? Can you separate it from your physical brain and show it to me? How is it different or distinguished from any other part of your inner life? Or is it any different?

We are changed completely, body and spirit in the twinkling of an eye at the second coming. So says Paul in this important 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

To not separate the inner life (spirit) from the physical life is a doctrine we as Adventists hold as truth. We teach that we must live holistically and we do not believe the body and spirit somehow magically separate at death, body dumped in a hole in the ground and the spirit spirited away to live with God, as many faiths do.

The transformation in a blink of an eye of which Paul speaks must transform us as a whole since he states that fact right after speaking of both the body and the spirit. He was referring to both being transformed.

To believe that the only change is physical condemns those who died as immature Christians to an eternity of trouble. And many of us suffer from virtually hardwired psychological defects that without question adversely effect our character. And all of us have brains programmed by a lifetime of bad experiences, some within our control, many not. Even the most mature Christians struggle to their dying day with these defects that are a result of sin. Will they wake up on that resurrection morning with those painful memories still in their brains? How does God get those awful things out of our brains? Does he expect us to live with them forever since they are a part of the character we are stuck with at that point? Or will God mysteriously (Paul's word) transform us all (Paul did say all of us) body mind and spirit (an integrated whole that would encompass "character")?

There are things in my head I want deleted. If not, they are the death of me. God will take care of that at the return of Jesus. That trumpet blast will erase death and destruction, not of just physical things, but inner life things too.

[John317]

"Character" is made by a person's choices and decisions throughout a lifetime. It's revealed most during times of crisis and problems. For instance, Job and his wife both showed their characters-- what they were made of-- after Satan was able to destroy their children. Job stood true and loyal to God, while his wife suggested that Job curse God and die. Those kinds of characteristics aren't changed at Christ's second appearing or at the resurrection, because our characters and destiny will be based on this life, not on what happens after death. That's one of the main lessons of the parable of the Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Ellen White states this explicitly over and over in her writings. For instance, 2 T 355. Her statements on this point are in full agreement with what the Bible teaches.

If God were going to change people's characters, He could do it to everyone and thus save everybody who's ever lived.

The whole purpose of the probationary period we're given is to develop our characeters now for the future life.

One of the Bible's strongest statements on this is "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap." God won't interfere with this law. Those who expect God to perform a miracle to change them after they've made themselves into the persons they are, will be in for a terrible shock.

A new character flows from true faith, and if we don't have that true faith, God will not make us a new character. That's what Romans 6 and 8 are all about. Are we sowing to the spirit or sowing to the flesh? We can't expect to sow to the flesh and reap of the spirit. If we expect to reap of the spirit, we must sow to the spirit. It's a law. Rom. 8: 5-14

[Tom Wetmore]

I might also add a more veiled reference found in the book of Revelation which is an allusion to a passage in Isaiah and key figures among God's people.

In Biblical times and culture, a name was considered indicative of character. God's name/character was so holy that it was not even spoken. When God placed his calling on certain people their name was changed - Abraham, Israel, Paul. It signified a change of that person.

Isaiah 62:2 speaks of the Lord giving Israel a new name which is linked to righteousness.

Revelation 2:17 Jesus speaking to Pergamos says he will give them a white stone with a new name. In ancient times a person given a white stone as a judgment of innocence. Their character was declared white and new and innocent.

Similarly for the church of Philadelphia they are also given a new name, Jesus' own name. No real fault is found in Philadelphia, but the\y are still are given a new name, which is that if Jesus. If name signifies character, they are covered by Jesus' own perfect name.

If name and character are closely linked, giving a new name is giving a new or transformed character. And it is significant in each instnace noted that the perosn does not change their own name, it is changed for them by God.

[John317]

The new name represents, or describes, their character. It is not as if God gives them a new character. Notice that Christ also has a "new name." But are we to think Christ will have a "new character"?

Notice Rev. 14: 1 and 22: 4 where it talks about people having God's name written in their foreheads. It's referring to people having characters like God's. That character is not something they are given in order to replace their own but it is something they have made a part of themselves through their relationship with God. God's character-- His law-- is written on their minds. How does this occur? By daily walking in the Spirit. In this way, we become more and more like Him. Rom. 6 and 8; 2 Cor. 3:18.

[Guest]

A big AMEN John.

[phkrause]

The new name represents, or describes, their character. It is not as if God gives them a new character. Notice that Christ also has a "new name." But are we to think Christ will have a "new character"?

Notice Rev. 14: 1 and 22: 4 where it talks about people having God's name written in their foreheads. It's referring to people having characters like God's. That character is not something they are given in order to replace their own but it is something they have made a part of themselves through their relationship with God. God's character-- His law-- is written on their minds. How does this occur? By daily walking in the Spirit. In this way, we become more and more like Him. Rom. 6 and 8; 2 Cor. 3:18.

Excellent points John.

pk

[John317]

pkrause

Richard H.