Woody Posted May 31, 2010 Posted May 31, 2010 Originally Posted By: stoney59 to think our puny, defiled and broken power of choice can thwart the desires of the Almighty...me thinks we've got too much descartes and kant in our thinking, and our God is too weak. we place way too much power and importance on our ability to choose. Surely if it were up to God, everyone would be saved. If it's not possible for our power of choice to thwart the desires of the Almighty, how can we explain what this world is like? Surely this world doesn't reflect God's will! To clarify ... are we discussing 'character' or 'choice' here? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 To clarify ... are we discussing 'character' or 'choice' here? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 we adventists have grown up with our obsession of obtaining a 'right character' and when we achieve that right character we're 'save to save.' the problem is, as i see it, though we talk of God's love and grace, we nevertheless evaluate our standing based on how we feel we're doing with our character. we work real hard at achieving the 'right character' so God will be pleased. salvation becomes a subtle and beguiling effort at saving ourselves. either Jesus saved us at the cross and resurrection, and it is a free gift, or He didn't. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
LifeHiscost Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 Excellent post, Mark. He can only change us as we surrender ourselves to Him. He won't force us to make any changes. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Revelation 3:20 NKJV Sounds like an invitation to let Jesus in. And it doesn't say He stays as an uninvited guest. The continued choice to invite Him in allows Him to determine what any friend would do if invited. The choice to open the door or continue the invitation is given to the person who wants His continued presence and wishes also to gain nourishment from the Bread of Life. And if eating of the Bread of Life can be said to change the character, that sounds like the way to accomplish it. "Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you."John 6:53 NKJV It seems the problem for some is found in the subsequent choices made. "Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.” At this point many of his disciples turned away and deserted him. Then Jesus turned to the Twelve and asked, “Are you also going to leave?” Simon Peter replied, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words that give eternal life. We believe, and we know you are the Holy One of God.” Then Jesus said, “I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil.” He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him." John 6:65-71 NKJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted June 1, 2010 Moderators Posted June 1, 2010 Beautiful verses you've posted there, LifeH. The sad thing is that Christ would love to have chosen Judas also, but Judas didn't let Jesus in. Judas' heart was too full of other things so there was no room for Christ. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 Beautiful verses you've posted there, LifeH. The sad thing is that Christ would love to have chosen Judas also, but Judas didn't let Jesus in. Judas' heart was too full of other things so there was no room for Christ. Thank you, John317. At this particular time Judas seems to reveal the danger of putting off the pleading of the Holy Spirit's call to invite Jesus in, until his heart was too hard to respond in a positive way to Jesus' call. I'm of the opinion, until a man draws His final breath the Holy Spirit makes effort to reach him with the love of Jesus, however when we/they no longer can hear that pleading, we/they accept the demands of the prince of darkness, which in Judas' case led to Judas' remorse instead of repentance and the taking of his own life. "Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron..." 1 Timothy 4:1-3 NKJV "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear. "Isaiah 59:2 NKJV "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. " Ephesians 4:30 NKJV All of those individual choices of Judas, unrepented of, set his character in what he had been given at birth. "“The heart is deceitful above all things,And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"Jer 17:9 NKJV Even so, Come Lord Jesus!! Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 We remain with Christ by faith. As our assurance deepens so will our faith. As we remain "in Him" by faith God begins to change our worldly views. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 That being said God still is working with me on those who teach legalism. I don't exactly love them (as in love your enemies). This is certainly a good thing, but another good thing would be to be more open-minded in regards to what "teaching legalism" is. I get the impression that you believe anyone who doesn't believe just like you do is teaching legalism. You seem to have 2 paradigms in mind, the one you used to have (when you were a legalist), and the one you have now (now that you aren't a legalist anymore). There are more paradigms than these. I've been through the legalist thing you went through too, and can assure you that's not where I'm coming from. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 1, 2010 Posted June 1, 2010 As I think about this Richard, it is clear to me, that this is what God means when He says He will write His law on our hearts and minds. He writes them on our heart, the seat of our affections and emotions. And on our mind, the seat of our thoughts. He changes our thoughts and feelings literally. But it is upon condition: 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We have to "agree" with Him about our sin, we have to "confess" our sins, then God changes our thoughts and feelings, when we accept He will write His law on our hearts and minds by faith. If we do not confess and repent, He cannot write those laws in our hearts and minds. So: Confess and repent. Accept by faith Gods promise to write His law in us. I agree with this. I would add that the confess and repent condition isn't an arbitrary one (i.e., God's not withholding something from us if we don't meet the condition), but it's simply not possible for God to write the law on our heart and mind if this isn't our desire (without overriding our free will, which God won't do). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
karl Posted June 3, 2010 Posted June 3, 2010 Originally Posted By: Robert That being said God still is working with me on those who teach legalism. I don't exactly love them (as in love your enemies). This is certainly a good thing, but another good thing would be to be more open-minded in regards to what "teaching legalism" is. To me, forensic theology is legalism. It presuppose that the problem and the solution are legal ones. The problem is not legal. The problem is relational. The Bible doesn't say "Get all the legalities worked out." It says, "Come unto me." It's about a broken relationship which led to a broken law. Legalists have that turned around to say that the broken law led to the broken relationship (and that by satisfying the law the relationship is healed.) It's a backward solution whether you're trying to do it all yourself (traditional legalism) or whether you claim that Jesus did it all Himself (forensic legalism.) God doesn't heal sins. He heals sinners. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 3, 2010 Posted June 3, 2010 I couldn't agree more. Quote: It presuppose that the problem and the solution are legal ones. Right, which leads to wrong conclusions, and to portraying God in negative ways. Agreed. It (this theology) not only messes up how we consider salvation, but how we consider God. If forensic theology were true, what would that say about God? This is an important question to consider. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
stoney59 Posted June 4, 2010 Posted June 4, 2010 i'm wondering that's all. i have been so touched by God's grace to me that i'm searching for the ends of it; where are the boundaries of His grace? some say it's my decision, and i understand the rules of choice, but since isaiah tells us His ways are not our ways, 'as the heavens are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts...' (isa 55), i just wonder that's all...the people grumbled when 'He went to be the guest of a man who is a sinner" (zaccheus, luke 19), i wonder who i would be upset about if God saved some undesirable, or someone we esteem as lost, etc. would i be upset if He saved everyone? i would rather err on His leniency than to be so full of my decision making powers to assume i can thwart the Lord's will (that all men be saved). i appreciate your questions and your willingness to engage the subject...the author john punt believes were all saved until we elect to be lost, the opposite from what sda's believe, or as i have been taught (i'm a graduate of the sda seminary). i believe mr. punt is closer to the truth than i was originally taught. there's more, so much more...thanks for asking. Quote
teresaq Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 ...the author john punt believes were all saved until we elect to be lost, the opposite from what sda's believe, or as i have been taught (i'm a graduate of the sda seminary). i believe mr. punt is closer to the truth than i was originally taught. there's more, so much more...thanks for asking. i think thats what j and w also taught generally speaking...it tends to make sense to me... Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 ...It presuppose that the problem and the solution are legal ones. ... God doesn't heal sins. He heals sinners. this helped me to understand a bit better the issues in forensic justification...and i would agree...how does being declared legally righteous actually make me righteous? or did i misunderstand your point? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
stoney59 Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 i'm sorry, i know i should know this, but who are j and w? Quote
stoney59 Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 i also think Jesus is way more interested in me than in my sins, and that's a huge point with me. my sins have been dealt with; because of Him, they are no longer an issue. yes, i'm still a sinner and still sin and will until i die, but i do not live in fear that somehow there's a sin of which i have over-looked and God will lock the eternal door on me because it it. My gaze is in HIs direction, not on me wondering what i need to do next. He's my friend, my father, my savior and His eyes light up when i just want to be with Him, rather than feel obligated to perform or behave a certain way or He turns from me. nothing could be farther from the truth. any good deeds i do bring Him glory, but have absolutely have no bearing on my entrance into eternity. i have found the rest of hebrews chp. 4. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 i'm wondering that's all. i have been so touched by God's grace to me that i'm searching for the ends of it; where are the boundaries of His grace? some say it's my decision, and i understand the rules of choice, but since isaiah tells us His ways are not our ways, 'as the heavens are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts...' (isa 55), i just wonder that's all...the people grumbled when 'He went to be the guest of a man who is a sinner" (zaccheus, luke 19), i wonder who i would be upset about if God saved some undesirable, or someone we esteem as lost, etc. would i be upset if He saved everyone? i would rather err on His leniency than to be so full of my decision making powers to assume i can thwart the Lord's will (that all men be saved). i appreciate your questions and your willingness to engage the subject...the author john punt believes were all saved until we elect to be lost, the opposite from what sda's believe, or as i have been taught (i'm a graduate of the sda seminary). i believe mr. punt is closer to the truth than i was originally taught. there's more, so much more...thanks for asking. You're tossing quite a few concepts around here! I think Punt's perspective has merit. Ellen White writes that Christ restored the entire race of men to favor with God. The Bible refers to Christ as "the Savior of the world," also that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." Going back to Ellen White, she writes that it's true that only those whom God calls will come to Christ, but God calls all, and all will come, unless they refuse, something like that. So I think the way to look at it is that one must do something to be lost, as opposed to the idea that you don't have to do anything to be lost, but you do to be saved. To be lost involves resisting the Holy Spirit. Punt's first name is Neil, by the way. His book is, "Unconditional Good News: Toward an Understanding of Biblical Universalism". He wrote this 30 years ago. I see that he just wrote another book recently, called "a theology of inclusion." Nice idea. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 karl:It presuppose that the problem and the solution are legal ones. ... God doesn't heal sins. He heals sinners. t:this helped me to understand a bit better the issues in forensic justification...and i would agree...how does being declared legally righteous actually make me righteous? or did i misunderstand your point? What did you think his point was? He was saying that the issue isn't legal, so being declared legally righteous isn't the issue. What actually makes one righteous is an excellent question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Quote: i also think Jesus is way more interested in me than in my sins, and that's a huge point with me. my sins have been dealt with; because of Him, they are no longer an issue. yes, i'm still a sinner and still sin and will until i die, but i do not live in fear that somehow there's a sin of which i have over-looked and God will lock the eternal door on me because it it. My gaze is in HIs direction, not on me wondering what i need to do next. He's my friend, my father, my savior and His eyes light up when i just want to be with Him, rather than feel obligated to perform or behave a certain way or He turns from me. nothing could be farther from the truth. any good deeds i do bring Him glory, but have absolutely have no bearing on my entrance into eternity. i have found the rest of hebrews chp. 4. j and w is Jones and Waggoner. Regarding your statements here, you seem to be focusing on God's character, which I think is the right focus. For example: Quote: He's my friend, my father, my savior and His eyes light up when i just want to be with Him... This has a good ring to it. Our big problem is not knowing God, not trusting Him, not even liking Him. Jesus Christ has taken an unknown scary God, and revealed Him as a loving Father, one who is Friend, Father, Savior, whose eyes light up; wonderfully put. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
karl Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 i also think Jesus is way more interested in me than in my sins, .... any good deeds i do bring Him glory, but have absolutely have no bearing on my entrance into eternity. i have found the rest of hebrews chp. 4. I think Jesus is trying to separate you from your sins. Regarding your second thought, it depends on your definition of good deeds. I consider it a good deed for you to believe in Jesus Christ. Do you think whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ has a bearing on your "entrance into eternity?" This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him Who He hath sent. Abraham believed God and it was counted unto Him for righteousness. Quote
stoney59 Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 thank you for your correction on the name. i read punt several years ago. i want to respond to you some more but i'm about to leave. i will return. i appreciate your thoughts and am grateful for your engagement here. Quote
stoney59 Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 believing in Jesus is the most wonderful of all human experiences, essential to an abundant life, and the rich mysteries He offers, especially here in a broken world. He is my Creator, my God, My Savior. I can't think of life without and like all mortals who find God, i am blessed beyond measure by knowing Him. Because of Him I have hope and assurances that i am loved, approved, and included. My destiny is as assured as the breath i breathe. And it is because of His unbelievable gracious love of the likes of me that my mind wanders and wonders in the far reaches of His grace. all that will be saved will be saved because of Him. He's that one name under heaven given among men...by which we must be saved.' i believe people from all walks of life, all religions, all philosophies etc. who will walk the streets of heaven. because of His gift on calvary anyone who is saved is saved because of Him, whether they know Him personally or not.the thief on the cross hardly had time to know Him intimately. i don't believe we earthlings even begin to understand the far-reaching impact of calvary; hence we will study the cross for eternity. God loves surprises and i put nothing past His love and ability to bring incredible happy endings for us all. you bet, i believe in Jesus! Quote
teresaq Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 i'm sorry, i know i should know this, but who are j and w? jones and waggoner... Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 Originally Posted By: teresaq karl:It presuppose that the problem and the solution are legal ones. ... God doesn't heal sins. He heals sinners. t:this helped me to understand a bit better the issues in forensic justification...and i would agree...how does being declared legally righteous actually make me righteous? or did i misunderstand your point? What did you think his point was? He was saying that the issue isn't legal, so being declared legally righteous isn't the issue. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
teresaq Posted June 5, 2010 Posted June 5, 2010 stoney:i also think Jesus is way more interested in me than in my sins, and that's a huge point with me. my sins have been dealt with; because of Him, they are no longer an issue. yes, i'm still a sinner and still sin and will until i die, but i do not live in fear that somehow there's a sin of which i have over-looked and God will lock the eternal door on me because it it. My gaze is in HIs direction, not on me wondering what i need to do next. He's my friend, my father, my savior and His eyes light up when i just want to be with Him, rather than feel obligated to perform or behave a certain way or He turns from me. nothing could be farther from the truth. any good deeds i do bring Him glory, but have absolutely have no bearing on my entrance into eternity. i have found the rest of hebrews chp. 4. p: Regarding your statements here, you seem to be focusing on God's character, which I think is the right focus. For example: Quote: He's my friend, my father, my savior and His eyes light up when i just want to be with Him... p: This has a good ring to it. Our big problem is not knowing God, not trusting Him, not even liking Him. Jesus Christ has taken an unknown scary God, and revealed Him as a loving Father, one who is Friend, Father, Savior, whose eyes light up; wonderfully put. i think i get further when my focus is on getting to know God, understanding Christs life... but i also think God would separate my sins from me for my benefit, my ultimate happiness, which i also think i get further thinking of it that way instead of i cant get into heaven unless im sinless... one is Christ-focused the other other is me-focused--and isnt that essentially what self-ish-ness is...? Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790
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