Character change pre-resurrection?

[teresaq]

believing in Jesus is the most wonderful of all human experiences, essential to an abundant life, and the rich mysteries He offers, especially here in a broken world. He is my Creator, my God, My Savior. I can't think of life without and like all mortals who find God, i am blessed beyond measure by knowing Him. Because of Him I have hope and assurances that i am loved, approved, and included. My destiny is as assured as the breath i breathe. And it is because of His unbelievable gracious love of the likes of me that my mind wanders and wonders in the far reaches of His grace. all that will be saved will be saved because of Him. He's that one name under heaven given among men...by which we must be saved.' i believe people from all walks of life, all religions, all philosophies etc. who will walk the streets of heaven. because of His gift on calvary anyone who is saved is saved because of Him, whether they know Him personally or not.the thief on the cross hardly had time to know Him intimately. i don't believe we earthlings even begin to understand the far-reaching impact of calvary; hence we will study the cross for eternity. God loves surprises and i put nothing past His love and ability to bring incredible happy endings for us all. you bet, i believe in Jesus!

its possible the thief did have knowledge of Jesus before he ended up on the cross and was responding to that "foreknowledge" as well as what He saw with Christ during the cross episode...

i also believe that many who have never heard of Jesus will also be saved, possibly many who reject the "christian god" because of we "christians", but i believe its because they are responding to the way God is without knowing it...

in other words, we all have two characters to choose from...Gods or satans/this worlds...

[phkrause]

its possible the thief did have knowledge of Jesus before he ended up on the cross and was responding to that "foreknowledge" as well as what He saw with Christ during the cross episode...

i also believe that many who have never heard of Jesus will also be saved, possibly many who reject the "christian god" because of we "christians", but i believe its because they are responding to the way God is without knowing it...

in other words, we all have two characters to choose from...Gods or satans/this worlds...

I agree with all your points teresaq. I do believe the thief had to have some knowledge of Jesus, but if not it doesn't take anything away from what happen there.

pk

[karl]

believing in Jesus is the most wonderful of all human experiences, essential to an abundant life, and the rich mysteries He offers, especially here in a broken world.

So, must we believe in Christ to be saved? This seems like an entry-level deed which must be done in order to be saved. How do we do it?

What does it mean to "believe" in a saving way? We are told that the devils believe and tremble, so obviously there is a saving belief and a belief which does not save. What do you think makes the difference?

The faith in Christ that saves the soul is not what it is represented to be by many. "Believe, believe," is their cry; "only believe in Christ, and you will be saved. It is all you have to do."

[pnattmbtc]

thank you for your correction on the name. i read punt several years ago. i want to respond to you some more but i'm about to leave. i will return. i appreciate your thoughts and am grateful for your engagement here.

Thanks. I'll await your comments.

I'll bet Punt's new book is interesting.

[pnattmbtc]

i also believe that many who have never heard of Jesus will also be saved, possibly many who reject the "christian god" because of we "christians", but i believe its because they are responding to the way God is without knowing it...

Me too.

[stoney59]

character change and perfection are two related topics which find their roots in legalism; they subtler, more bewitching because they appear so noble, so spiritual and 'christ-like.' i think they speak not to the reality of the human heart. when the bible says we a 'desperately wicked' it isn't joking. i'm 60, have been an sda all my life, baptized at 16, attended our colleges and graduated from the seminary, so i know a little about sda'ism from an upfront and personal experience. i also know myself and there will never be a time when i'm 'perfect.' not even close; in fact the topic even amuses me because how can broken, sinful, desperately wicked human beings, who are the epitome of imperfection think they know what perfection is in substance? reminds me of ant discussing what it's like to be a human. i can only look to Jesus, who is perfect, and i resemble Him little.

i think God requires we remember who we are; basic honesty, you can call it confession, if you like. king david was a liar, an adulterer, a murderer, and yet the Lord refers to him as 'the apple of His eye.' why? because when confronted with his sin he confesses the truth. the truth is i still notice a pretty woman, i still struggle with depression, anger, bigotry, etc. the list is endless. there will never be a time i don't need a Savior, never. i will die being a sinner who loves his Savior because i am corrupt at heart, by nature, to the inside of my inside. 'have mercy on me for i am a sinner.' only at the second coming will my corruption dawn the glory of incorruption; not until then.

[Lineman]

I would say it's evident that what's really being judged is our character.

This comment was way back on page 1 and I agree. I just started reading though and wanted to add this thought before I get any farther:

Seems to me that God is judging us on just ONE question; "Has this person accepted the death of My Son to be the substitute for his own death?"

• If YES, then I will give this person life that will not end, ever.
• If NO, then this person must pay his own debt and die forever.

I believe that our answer to this one question shows our character in its entirety, our true character. It is the answer to this one question that determines which resurrection we are in and therefore it is obvious that there will be no character change after either resurrection.

This one verse (verse 11) seems to answer your original question best:

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done." Revd 22:11-12 ESV.

[karl]

What, exactly, do you think will change when you are glorified? Certainly you will not want to get to the place that you don't think you need a Savior prior to glorification.

But how much of a change do you expect in your personality, motives, desires, habits after resurrection?

As I've said before, if God resurrects a being with different personality, motives, and desires than you die with, He's resurrecting somebody who is not you. It would be somebody you and your friends would not recognize.

Somebody else.

[Robert]

TU

[Lineman]

If we can do absolutely nothing and God must do everything, that means it's God's fault if we don't do His will. But that is false.

It's true that without God, we can't do anything, but with God we can do everything He has commanded us to do.

His commands are actually enablings....

God won't force us to do right. But when we constantly submit our will to His will and seek His will in our lives, then we give Him permission to change our thinking and our feelings. He refuses to do that against our wishes. He doesn't look for our words but He looks to see by our actions that we really mean what we say.

I wrote on this some time back and feel impressed to share it here:

During our latest Bible study we were talking about righteousness through faith in Jesus. And we were trying to understand what, if any, works had to do with things because Paul says that €œfaith without works is dead€. We all know that Jesus has told us that without Him we can not do ANYTHING (John 15:5). We also know that with Him we can do ALL things (Philippians 4:13).

An illustration someone brought up was very instrumental in helping me understand this whole topic, and I want to share a little of what I learned from this.

We talked about and batted around as a group the idea of us being much like a dirty window that is located on the 15th floor. Without Jesus, when we try to clean our window all we have to clean with are dirty rags and filthy water, which of course only leaves the window a little better until things dry. Then things are right back to where they were before we started. Even though the dirt has been moved around it's still very dirty.

But when Jesus comes into our hearts He gives us the tools to really clean the window both on the inside and on the outside. He provides the clean water, a scrubbing sponge on a stick and a squeegee to do things right. He even provides the energy we need. And for the outside He becomes the scaffolding, the €œfoundation€, on which we can stand to clean the outside. By faith we stand firm on Him, and it is ONLY through His gift of grace that we are able to do anything, but He actually makes it possible for us to do it all.

On the other hand, if we allow Jesus into our hearts and even tell the world that we have faith in Him, yet we just sit there doing nothing after we have been given all the tools we need, we will continue to have dirty lives. We can sit there forever and unless we make an effort to do what we have been asked to do (by Jesus) nothing will be done.

It's like the man in the Bible that Jesus told to get up and walk. Until he made an effort to do what he was asked to do he was still paralyzed, yet once he tried to do something his legs worked perfectly.

I want to be the absolute best €œ"window washer"€ there ever was, but I know that I can only get my window clean if Jesus lives in me.

Looking at things this way might be called legalism by some, but it's what Jesus has asked His followers to do and so that's exactly what I want to do. It will not get me to Heaven, but NOT doing what I have been asked to do proves that my heart is not where my mouth is and will keep me out of Heaven.

[Lineman]

Sorry, cannot help myself!

...author john punt believes we're all saved until we elect to be lost, the opposite from what sda's believe, or as i have been taught (i'm a graduate of the sda seminary). i believe mr. punt is closer to the truth than i was originally taught.

[stoney59]

Any good that i do glorifies my Maker for all good works, all goodness come from Him. i pray to be an instrument through which His love is extended to the world, but i don't do this in a vacuum. i benefit from acting like the Savior. He is unselfish and i, by my very nature, am very selfish. any act of kindness, courtesy, goodness is a God-act whether you realize it or not. God's will for me is to learn to love everyone without judging, a task i often fail miserably. any good act done for others so they will notice how spiritual i am is still a good act, but i benefited little because i did it selfishly. the good that i do brings Him glory and improves my quality of being in this broken world. we have the blessed opportunity to live in the kingdom 'that is but not yet.'

adventists have been very hubris in their view of what the world needs most. we think the end of time hinges on our views of God and our theology, and if only the world would think and believe like we do, then Jesus could return. like the dusty springfield song, 'what the world needs most is love sweet love,' the kind of love Jesus delivered to us in His very person and being, God's love in the flesh. God's will is that i learn to love my fellow man, which is a chance to be like Him, to reflect Him.

God offers me the gift to live life here like life will be in His kingdom, a life of unselfish love. that DOES involve acts and deeds, which give Him the glory and simultaneously provide me the opportunity to live in His kingdom now. as i hang with Him i look for opportunities to give, to love, to help...in doing so there i find Him.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: stoney59

...author john punt believes we're all saved until we elect to be lost, the opposite from what sda's believe, or as i have been taught (i'm a graduate of the sda seminary). i believe mr. punt is closer to the truth than i was originally taught.

I think Mr Punt is saying the same thing Ellen White said in Steps to Christ.

Originally Posted By: Steps to Christ, pg 27

"The sinner may resist [God's] love, may refuse to be drawn to Christ; but if he does not resist he will be drawn to Jesus."

If I read her correctly she is saying that if we do not resist God's love we will be saved.

I don't think she said that we will be saved if we don't resist. I think she said we will be drawn to Christ if we don't resist.

Once you're drawn to Christ, there is still work to be done. Judas was drawn to Christ. He didn't make it.

The very first step to Christ is taken through the drawing of the Spirit of God; as man responds to this drawing, he advances toward Christ in order that he may repent.

True repentance is the gift of God, but only those who submit to Him receive it.

All along the path of salvation there is a cross. The journey crosses our inclinations, our pride, our rationalizations, our unbelief.

[doug yowell]

[

If I read her correctly she is saying that if we do not resist God's love we will be saved.

I don't think she said that we will be saved if we don't resist. I think she said we will be drawn to Christ if we don't resist.

Once you're drawn to Christ, there is still work to be done. Judas was drawn to Christ. He didn't make it.

[karl]

Karl, If you don't resist you WILL be saved for that is God's whole intention of drawing us to Himself. It is our resistence that keeps Him working out His will in our lives. It was Judas resistence to Christ's leadership that eventually drove him away."Come unto Me all you that are heavy laden, and I WILL give you rest." "He that comes to me I will IN NO WISE cast out." The principle is the same: "Resistence is futile!"

If resistance is truly futile, the inescapable conclusion is universalism.

What is the difference between not resisting Christ and actively cooperating with Him, in your estimation, Doug?

Stern battles with self fall in which of the two categories?

Opening the door when He knocks. Does this fall in the "not resisting" or the "actively cooperating" category?

Keeping yourself under, lest when you have preached to others you yourself should become a castaway. Not resisting? Or actively cooperating?

Submission to Christ. Not resisting? Or actively cooperating?

Forgiving others. Not resisting? Or actively cooperating?

Confessing sins. Not resisting? Or actively cooperating?

We, as a church, need to decide whether salvation is passively received or actively received. A do-nothing salvation is the doctrine of universalism or Calvinism.

God's will for us is our active cooperation. Therefore, if we do not resist His will, we actively cooperate. We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who worketh in us, to will and to do of His good pleasure. Sounds like double-talk, but it isn't.

[Tom Wetmore]

What I posted elswhere seems to fit in right here:

I don't disagree, but I think the labels and words we choose tend to distort or grossly over-simplify the whole topic. And a problem is the polarization by emphasizing the extreme views from either side as if they represent the majority view or even truly reflect a contrary point of view. Balance that accounts for all aspects of the complexity of this whole topic is needed.

Yes, at gut level, obedience is the requirement without question. But is sanctification only about simply obedience? What does it mean to be righteous? How does one cleanse their whole self of sin? Is it simply blotting out the records of our sin? Does it also include ceasing from committing any more sins? Is that all there is to it?

Go to the cellular level of the brain. Sin resides deep within us. Every cell of our body is saturated with sin. Every synapses of our brain has been corrupted and infected with the virus of sin. How do we wipe all that out, erasing the evil that haunts our subconscious and seeps out into our conscious thoughts at inopportune moments? If we get rid of all that will we be righteous? So is it simply wiping out all the bad? Is that all that God requires?

Isn't more required? What does it really mean to be righteous? Isn't it more than just not being bad? Isn't it about being really, really good? Not just no more bad thoughts and bad deeds, we must also be altogether good, thinking only good thoughts and doing good things - ALL THE TIME, with no slip ups, now and forever, for eternity.

That requires being completely reprogrammed, and then some more. But just as with a computer, if you take an old defective, computer, hard-wired at the CPU/motherboard badly, full, of malware and corrupted files, and I mean fully loaded, and try to install new and better programs and the latest upgrades, we still have a poorly functioning computer and all those new programs get infected and run less than perfectly. You have to destroy all that is bad first and replace it with only what is good and perfect. That includes the hardware. A complete disk wipe. All new software installed in new hardware. And a computer is powerless to fix itself or even do much to help. And we still have to connect to the Internet and have perfect firewalls against all the malware waiting out there... We live in a world that bombards us with new sin virus and malware every second of every day.

That is where faith comes in. Yes, we know we have to stop being bad and start being good. But this side of the Second Coming, we are stuck with defective hardware running corrupted software. All that we can do now is tinker with what we're stuck with, programming temporary work-arounds and fixes, patches on old rotten hardware. We try and stumble stagger and lurch through life, like babies learning to walk. And just as babies that do eventually learn to walk, we still stumble at times, stub our toes and fall down and bump our heads. (And time doesn't help because the longer we live we again start looking like that staggering baby again..) Sanctification - the work of a lifetime. Nice slogan. A platitude considering the magnitude of what we are up against. Life is too short. No life is long enough.

But by faith, we look to the One who is perfect and who will make it all right in the end. And by faith we know it can be done, even if we see only dimly small flashes of the good shining through right now. It is only by faith, right now, that we can hope to grasp the righteousness that God has in mind for us. We can only simulate and poorly imitate it now, but we move forward in faith, hope an expectation of becoming a new creation where all is good again as He pronounced it at the first creation.

And we are changed, completely, in the an instant, in the blink of an eye. It just takes a little faith to hang on to that hope. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth..." No more bad. It's all good. Right down to the subatomic level, the DNA and genetic level of all living things. It all has to change and once again run as God originally designed it. It must obey all the laws, natural and moral, of God.

[doug yowell]

Amen!! Ending in I Pet.1:9.

[karl]

Yes, Tom, I agree that with man salvation is impossible, but WITH God all things are possible.

We work WITH God, and these impossibilities melt away. Our mountain of sin is cast into the sea. We yoke up WITH Christ and the burden is light (not nonexistent.)

Salvation is a cooperative work between man and God. God makes all the provisions. We accept and submit. We confess and resolutely turn away from sin. We resist the devil. And we continue to do this. It is an ongoing process. Anybody who thinks he has arrived is delusional. We press on toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[Lineman]

I don't think she said that we will be saved if we don't resist. I think she said we will be drawn to Christ if we don't resist.

Once you're drawn to Christ, there is still work to be done. Judas was drawn to Christ. He didn't make it.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yes, and the last time I checked my brain, where all that character stuff resides in me, was a real, physical part of my body.

This new creature stuff is a mystery beyond our reach. I do not understand even a speck of what kind of new physical body I will have. If God takes away from my sinful body all evidence of sin will anyone still recognize me even? Why do we limit the hand of God to just reworking the physical body and ignore what he has to do clear down to our DNA to reverse and reprogram the thousands of years of inherited sinfulness? Do we honestly think that our character development we could possibly achieve in our few years here on earth is enough to achieve the perfect righteousness He requires?

I would gladly live for eternity physically handicapped with the aches and pains of my aging mortal body that is that way from sin if God would purge my brain of the sin absorbed into the very physical cells of my brain so that the memory of sin, which makes me forever sinful (that is full of sin). I do not have to lift a finger to be that way or to sin in my heart as Jesus described it. And all that happens in the synapses of that physical organ between my ears. That has to be changed too, more so than my broken and decrepit body.

And I would ask each of to carefully consider how close they really are to that character development that would fit them for the kingdom of God? We all have lightyears to go on that journey. And we are limited to much slower speed of travel down that road than the speed of light.

[teresaq]

i cant say i really understand what you are saying but having been born and raised in the behavior-centered environment of the sda church-of that time-i know how hopeless and helpless it made me feel. not to mention that "sinless" was vague at best and pretty much depended on who one heard, which i now know was based mainly on their own unconverted experience....

one of the many things that helped me was when it was pointed out that "perfect" meant "merciful". everyone has to find what "works" for them, but part of what works for me is just trying to keep studying about Christ and not worrying about the "sinless" part---

ellen white does say that we are to be perfect in our sphere as God is in His...something like that...our sphere isnt the same sphere as Gods...and from her comments the angels arent as perfect as God either...

[karl]

This new creature stuff is a mystery beyond our reach. I do not understand even a speck of what kind of new physical body I will have.

If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.

[Lineman]

And I would ask each of to carefully consider how close they really are to that character development that would fit them for the kingdom of God?

[stoney59]

tom wetmore,

you are right on. those who think that in 70 or so years they can become righteously perfect are not only fooling themselves, they are ignoring the degree and depth to which sin has polluted our character. that's why Jesus is so vital and important. when He 'moved into my neighborhood' (peterson) He knew the intensity of my opaque darkness, He understood how undone we are (i am), He knew in our ignorance and pride we would reject Him, yet He still came. I love Him so much for that. thanks for your input, you get it. throughout eternity i will need my Savior. i ban the thought that i will someday be so perfect i will not need Him. even if that ludicrous thought were true, i would reject it. i never ever want to live apart from a Savior who loves me like Jesus.

[Robert]

from her comments the angels arent as perfect as God either...

I find this very hard to accept. Perfection is perfect agape love. The angels, if they aren't perfect, retain a taint of sin. That I can't accept. Even believers, after they enter heaven, will have a life that measures with the life of God.

PC- ST

PT- The Signs of the Times

DT- 06-09-81

AT- Idolatry Punished

PR- 21

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God , and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.