Character change pre-resurrection?

[Robert]

One of the Bible's strongest statements on this is "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

That context is made with reference to legalism....

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith. 11 See with how large letters I write unto you with mine own hand. 12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 14 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace [be] upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. 17 Henceforth, let no man trouble me; for I bear branded on my body the marks of Jesus. 18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brethren. Amen.

[pnattmbtc]

There are things in my head I want deleted. If not, they are the death of me.

What are these things? Why would they be the death of you? Are these temptations, or things like the hard-wiring you mentioned? Or something else, like things you yourself choose to think about? If the latter, how could God get rid of these without violating your free will?

Sorry for all these questions, but I don't know what you're trying to get at here.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: One of the Bible's strongest statements on this is "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

Quote:

Robert: That context is made with reference to legalism....

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith.

Compare the same concept in Rom. 6 and 8.

Paul says, "Because he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not be weary in well-doing; because in due season we shall reap [eternal life] IF WE FAINT NOT. So then, as we have opportunity, LET US WORK THAT WHICH IS GOOD..."

Notice there's a condition, "if."

Presumption is counterfeit faith-- it expects to reap that which has not been sown.

Verse 7 says God is not fooled, because we will be sure to reap what we sow. It's a foolish person who thinks he will reap what he didn't sow. Who is so foolish as to go out to get fruit from weeds? Simiarly, if you don't sow towards God and eternal life, don't expect to reap eternal life. God won't give you eternal life if you have been sowing to the flesh. Sowing to the flesh leads to only one place, and that is death. See Romans 8: 6, 13.

[Robert]

Quote:

John317: One of the Bible's strongest statements on this is "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

Quote:

Robert: That context is made with reference to legalism....

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith. 12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Compare the same concept in Rom. 6 and 8.

Why? That's not the context....Read the immediate context.

[pnattmbtc]

When the Bible says that one will sow what one reaps, is this speaking of character or performance?

[Woody]

What is character? Where does it reside? How do you know your own character? Can you separate it from your physical brain and show it to me? How is it different or distinguished from any other part of your inner life? Or is it any different?

We are changed completely, body and spirit in the twinkling of an eye at the second coming. So says Paul in this important 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians.

To not separate the inner life (spirit) from the physical life is a doctrine we as Adventists hold as truth. We teach that we must live holistically and we do not believe the body and spirit somehow magically separate at death, body dumped in a hole in the ground and the spirit spirited away to live with God, as many faiths do.

The transformation in a blink of an eye of which Paul speaks must transform us as a whole since he states that fact right after speaking of both the body and the spirit. He was referring to both being transformed.

To believe that the only change is physical condemns those who died as immature Christians to an eternity of trouble. And many of us suffer from virtually hardwired psychological defects that without question adversely effect our character. And all of us have brains programmed by a lifetime of bad experiences, some within our control, many not. Even the most mature Christians struggle to their dying day with these defects that are a result of sin. Will they wake up on that resurrection morning with those painful memories still in their brains? How does God get those awful things out of our brains? Does he expect us to live with them forever since they are a part of the character we are stuck with at that point? Or will God mysteriously (Paul's word) transform us all (Paul did say all of us) body mind and spirit (an integrated whole that would encompass "character")?

There are things in my head I want deleted. If not, they are the death of me. God will take care of that at the return of Jesus. That trumpet blast will erase death and destruction, not of just physical things, but inner life things too.

A big AMEN John TOM.

[John317]

Quote:

John317: One of the Bible's strongest statements on this is "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap."

Quote:

Robert: That context is made with reference to legalism....

Quote:

JOHN3:17: (quoting Gal.6): " 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not be weary in well-doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us work that which is good toward all men, and especially toward them that are of the household of the faith. 12 As many as desire to make a fair show in the flesh, they compel you to be circumcised; only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even they who receive circumcision do themselves keep the law; but they desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh."

Compare the same concept in Rom. 6 and 8.

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Robert: Why? That's not the context....Read the immediate context.

Here's the context:

walking in the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5: 16-26); bearing and sharing burdens (Gal. 6: 1-5); being generous and doing good (vv. 6-10); and glorying only in the cross.

Notice the evidences of (A) sowing to the flesh and ( sowing to the Spirit:

A. Sowing to the flesh

Gal. 5: 19-21 says the evidences of sowing to the flesh are adultery, fornication, uncleanness, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like.

Those who practice these things-- all of which are violations of God's Ten Commandments-- will not in inherit the kingdom of God. Those characteristic describe these people's character. They develop characters like their father the devil's.

B.Sowing to the Spirit

Gal. 5: 22-23 says the evidences of sowing to the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.

Paul says there is no law against these things; in other words, they are in conformity to God's law and His character. These characteristics describe the character of these people. They are daily becoming more and more like their Father, until at last they have His name, or character, in their minds.

People produce these evidences of sowing to the Spirit because they have crucified the flesh and are continually living and walking in the Spirit.

Please notice Gal. 6: 8-- "He who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption [death], but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life." (Compare Romans 8: 5,6, 12, 13 quoted below.)

We can't sow to our flesh and reap to the Spirit. That's as impossible as sowing weeds and reaping apples. We reap what we sow. If we sow to the flesh, we will certainly reap death; but if we sow to the Spirit, we will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

Compare the following verses, which say the same thing:

Romans 8:5-13

Quote:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Please notice that the above verses-- which repeat what Gal. 6: 7 says-- are not in the context of legalism but of living free from indwelling sin.

The whole of Romans 6 also contains much of the same message.

[Robert]

When the Bible says that one will sow what one reaps, is this speaking of character or performance?

mindset....

[Robert]

"Those who practice these things-- all of which are violations of God's Ten Commandments-- will not in inherit the kingdom of God."

Sorry, we aren't under law because if we were you & I would be under the curse because we are not free from self-seeking. If you engage in the world's system (in the US, Capitalism) you are engaging in Lucifer's system - a system built on our bent-to-self.

To practice means to condone...to live guilt free (as in to harden one's conscience). For example, let's say I have a problem with porn....Let's say that the flesh gets a hold of my mind now and then and I do wrong.

That, in and of itself, is not practicing sin (adultery). Now if after I've viewed such and my conscience pricks me, what if I say "that's not sin...I mean God made sex...He made Adam & Eve without cloths...so there's nothing wrong with porn"?

While that's not practicing sin either that is justifying sin. Pretty soon nothing is sin a therefore I don't need a Savior. That's the unpardonable sin. That's what practicing known sin will eventually do - crucify Christ all over again. So a practiced sin is a known sin that I've been deeply convicted of but chose not to repent of....

The worst sin of all is the sin of self-righteousness or legalism. In fact Jack S. says it best: Mankind is by nature legalistic. He thinks he can earn his way into heaven because he is born proud and egocentric. Everything you do in this world, be it school, sports, etc...is built on the platform of pride and self-seeking. You are competing against others so you'll have something (be it food, housing, cars, wealth, etc)

[pnattmbtc]

p:When the Bible says that one will sow what one reaps, is this speaking of character or performance?

R:mindset....

So we need to have the right mindset, or "the mind of Christ," as Paul calls it. How do we receive the "mind of Christ"?

[Gerr]

I still think that is a little vague Gerry.

Imagine you were talking to someone who knew very little of the bible.

How would you bring this point across?

“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die

But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. Eze 18:21,24 ESV

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten

Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Eccl 9:5-6 ESV

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

p:When the Bible says that one will sow what one reaps, is this speaking of character or performance?

R:mindset....

So we need to have the right mindset, or "the mind of Christ," as Paul calls it. How do we receive the "mind of Christ"?

We can't do anything....Either God begins to change our views/mindset or He does not. It took God a number of years to take me from a legalistic mind to where I am now.

As a legalist I was eat up with the flesh....As one who is sure of his salvation because of the truth as it is "in Christ" others have notice a genuine change in my character.

That being said God still is working with me on those who teach legalism. I don't exactly love them (as in love your enemies). But as much as I grow is not important because none of this contributes to my ticket to heaven. In other words I already have the assurance of salvation in the doing and dying of Christ.

[John317]

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Robert: We can't do anything....Either God begins to change our views/mindset or He does not.

If we can do absolutely nothing and God must do everything, that means it's God's fault if we don't do His will. But that is false.

It's true that without God, we can't do anything, but with God we can do everything He has commanded us to do.

His commands are actually enablings, just like Ellen White said.

God won't force us to do right. But when we constantly submit our will to His will and seek His will in our lives, then we give Him permission to change our thinking and our feelings. He refuses to do that against our wishes. He doesn't look for our words but He looks to see by our actions that we really mean what we say.

[Robert]

He doesn't look for our words but He looks to see by our actions that we really mean what we say.

That's legalism....That's you doing things, but since nothing good resides in our humanity these works will be polluted with self.

[Robert]

when we constantly submit our will to His will and seek His will in our lives, then we give Him permission to change our thinking and our feelings.

That's putting the cart before the ox. Notice your emphasis on "when we"....No John, He begins to change our thinking and then we begin to grow. Change in the mind...then things begin to change, but never to be saved.

[Robert]

John 15:4 "Stay united with me, as I will with you -- for just as the branch can't put forth fruit by itself apart from the vine, so you can't bear fruit apart from me." CJB

We remain with Christ by faith. As our assurance deepens so will our faith. As we remain "in Him" by faith God begins to change our worldly views. Sooner or later that reflects in a changed life.

[Robert]

John, you remind of that quote from Cool hand Luke when the warden said, "You run one time, you got yourself a set of chains. You run twice you got yourself two sets. You ain't gonna need no third set, 'cause you gonna get your mind right.'"

My point? We can't change our heart (mind). We can only accept Christ and stay with Him by faith. As we do He begins to change the mind....

[teresaq]

That being said God still is working with me on those who teach legalism. I don't exactly love them (as in love your enemies).

yeah, it kinda comes across! but im sure my impatience with certain mentalities also comes across...

i suggest, robert, that some that you identify as "legalists" are not, or perhaps you dont quite have the victory over legalism that you think you have....

and others are to the max, but poking your/our finger in their belly and saying "you are fat!" is not going to help them get the point...not only that, you are in reality helping them feel secure in their condition-you come across as out of control which makes them feel "in control" therefore right...

[stoney59]

to think our puny, defiled and broken power of choice can thwart the desires of the Almighty...me thinks we've got too much descartes and kant in our thinking, and our God is too weak. we place way too much power and importance on our ability to choose. Christ forgave those crucifying Him; i don't remember Him asking them to choose His forgiveness, He forgave them anyway. we make 'the self' the ultimate arbiter of our destiny which is just another expression of selfishness. it's not about me, it's all about Him and what He did. if not, i guess the Cross wasn't quite the match for the sin of the first adam; he sentenced ALL of us to die (without asking us to choose) while the 2nd adam only provides the 'opportunity' for us to escape, and that hinges on us making the right choice. if man can ultimately thwart the desires of the Creator (2 Tim. 2:4), then grace, the free gift, is really grace the result of human volition. is that the 'good news' the world is waiting to hear? if so, 'good luck.'

[Robert]

perhaps you dont quite have the victory over legalism that you think you have....

[Christopher]

How can God change the Character? the character is something that has to be learned over a period of time,so changing it would be to change into robots or back to infants that have learned nothing and have to learn again. Also the circumstances in which those characteristics are learned makes a difference in what they turn out to be. And so even God would have to take time in doing so and were would the Freedom He has given us be then.

Christopher

[John317]

God wants everyone saved but relatively few people will be saved comapred to the billions who have lived.

What's the deciding factor? People's choices. Otherwise, it's God's fault that people are lost. We don't earn any merit by those choices, but we do have to choose, and the choice must be made every day.

It's like two drowning men-- one survives because he accepts the lifeline thrown out to him; the other dies because he either didn't choose to reach out his empty hand for the lifeline or else he let go before he got to shore.

God throws out the lifeline to everyone and he gives us the strength to grab it. But only a few choose to accept it and hang on until they get to shore.

[John317]

Quote:

Robert: We can't change our heart (mind). We can only accept Christ and stay with Him by faith. As we do He begins to change the mind....

I never said we change our heart or that we change ourselves. But we do have to choose Him. We have to choose to put ourselves in the hands of the Great Physician, just like a dying patient must decide to trust his doctor and follow the doctor's orders if he hopes to get well.

[teresaq]

How can God change the Character? the character is something that has to be learned over a period of time,so changing it would be to change into robots or back to infants that have learned nothing and have to learn again. Also the circumstances in which those characteristics are learned makes a difference in what they turn out to be. And so even God would have to take time in doing so and were would the Freedom He has given us be then.

[Gerr]

to think our puny, defiled and broken power of choice can thwart the desires of the Almighty...me thinks we've got too much descartes and kant in our thinking, and our God is too weak. we place way too much power and importance on our ability to choose.

Are you saying that puny man can't say "NO" to God?

Quote:

Christ forgave those crucifying Him; i don't remember Him asking them to choose His forgiveness, He forgave them anyway. we make 'the self' the ultimate arbiter of our destiny which is just another expression of selfishness. it's not about me, it's all about Him and what He did. if not, i guess the Cross wasn't quite the match for the sin of the first adam; he sentenced ALL of us to die (without asking us to choose) while the 2nd adam only provides the 'opportunity' for us to escape, and that hinges on us making the right choice. if man can ultimately thwart the desires of the Creator (2 Tim. 2:4), then grace, the free gift, is really grace the result of human volition. is that the 'good news' the world is waiting to hear? if so, 'good luck.'

Are you saying God will save everyone?