Character change pre-resurrection?

[Tom Wetmore]

... and that sounds to me like the reality of eternity involves a great deal of character development. A substantial part of the point I have been making is pushing back against those that claim that since all we take with us is our character, so we better be sure it is pretty darn good, because we are stuck with the character we develop here, now, for eternity. Those who hold to this line of thought always limit the changing in a moment in the twinkling of an eye to be only a physical change. To me it is closely related to the heresy of the immortality of the soul which has to allow for a body and soul being two separate divisible things.

I am saying I don't like my character all that much when I compare it to Christ, I don't see enough growth in my 54 years so far that I could expect if I live to 100, that my character would get within a million light-years of his character which would fit me for heaven. If I go into the kingdom holding my character as the only part of me unchanged, I would be the trojan horse full of sinfulness entering the kingdom of God. That is, unless God does something to fix even that.

If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.

And that I accept on faith to be the promise, the expectation, the guarantee of what will be, eventually.

And that is why it is called righteousness by faith.

[karl]

Our cells will not be made perfect until glorification, but we can and must, here on this earth, develop the habit of "Yes, Lord."

Isaiah 51:1

Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD:

Zephaniah 2:3

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness:

Matthew 6:33

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

This new creature stuff is a mystery beyond our reach. I do not understand even a speck of what kind of new physical body I will have.

If any man is in Christ, he is a new creature.

To add to this, our cleansing from sin is right now.

Many times we stop at a "legal" cleansing from sin, whilst the sin remains, as if this was a "cleansing".

But this is not what Jesus promised us.

We can be cleansed fully from sin, all confessed and known sin.

Because God is capable...

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Those who hold to this line of thought always limit the changing in a moment in the twinkling of an eye to be only a physical change.

[Twilight]

character change and perfection are two related topics which find their roots in legalism; they subtler, more bewitching because they appear so noble, so spiritual and 'christ-like.' i think they speak not to the reality of the human heart. when the bible says we a 'desperately wicked' it isn't joking. i'm 60, have been an sda all my life, baptized at 16, attended our colleges and graduated from the seminary, so i know a little about sda'ism from an upfront and personal experience. i also know myself and there will never be a time when i'm 'perfect.' not even close; in fact the topic even amuses me because how can broken, sinful, desperately wicked human beings, who are the epitome of imperfection think they know what perfection is in substance? reminds me of ant discussing what it's like to be a human. i can only look to Jesus, who is perfect, and i resemble Him little.

i think God requires we remember who we are; basic honesty, you can call it confession, if you like. king david was a liar, an adulterer, a murderer, and yet the Lord refers to him as 'the apple of His eye.' why? because when confronted with his sin he confesses the truth. the truth is i still notice a pretty woman, i still struggle with depression, anger, bigotry, etc. the list is endless. there will never be a time i don't need a Savior, never. i will die being a sinner who loves his Savior because i am corrupt at heart, by nature, to the inside of my inside. 'have mercy on me for i am a sinner.' only at the second coming will my corruption dawn the glory of incorruption; not until then.

So are we saying that Jesus cannot cleanse us from all sin?

Discussion of this point here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/365982.html#Post365982

[karl]

Originally Posted By: stoney59

character change and perfection are two related topics which find their roots in legalism; they subtler, more bewitching because they appear so noble, so spiritual and 'christ-like.' ....

So are we saying that Jesus cannot cleanse us from all sin?

Discussion of this point here:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/365982.html#Post365982

Good question, Mark. If He is able and we are willing/cooperative, what is there to hinder our complete healing?

[Guest]

Amen to that.

[teresaq]

i cant say that i completely agree with your and toms position, but i am starting to understand it better....i certainly cant see any reason for a "war" over it, anyway...in fact i think "you" have points worth considering, tho i still believe that we will need a character that will be happy in heaven...

healing of mind seems to be one point...i believe that our thoughts, desires can be changed here, but not the physical brain itself, not completely, and that would affect how perfect we can be...

course, any "enlightenment" i might have come to is in large part thanks to a. leroy moore, who took the time to understand viewpoints different from his own, and points out valid points in those viewpoints... blessed are the peacemakers, says the bible...

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding our being a new creation ("new creature" in the KJV), here is a comment by E. J. Waggoner:

Quote:

There has been a great deal of idle speculation as to which is the greater, redemption or creation. Many have thought that redemption is a greater work than creation. Such speculation is idle, because only infinite power could perform either work, and infinite power cannot be measured by human minds. But while we cannot measure the power, we can easily settle the question of which is the greater, because the Scriptures give us the information. Neither is greater than the other, for both are the same. Redemption is creation. Redemption is the same power that was put forth in the beginning to create the world and all that is in it, now put forth to save men and the earth from the curse of sin.

The Scriptures are very clear on this point. The psalmist prayed, “Create in me a clean heart, and renew a right spirit within me” (Psalm 51:10). The apostle says, that “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:17), or a new creation. And again we read, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Compared with God, man is “less than nothing, and vanity.” Isaiah 40:17. In him “dwelleth no good thing” (Romans 7:18). Now the same power that in the beginning made the earth from nothing, takes man, if he is willing, and makes of him that which is “to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:6).

What Paul is discussing is clear from both the context and the language he uses.

[karl]

Quote:

Redemption is creation. Redemption is the same power that was put forth in the beginning to create the world and all that is in it, now put forth to save men and the earth from the curse of sin......

Compared with God, man is “less than nothing, and vanity.” Isaiah 40:17. In him “dwelleth no good thing” (Romans 7:18). Now the same power that in the beginning made the earth from nothing, takes man, if he is willing, and makes of him that which is “to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:6).

THIS is why we should oppose the teaching of evolution in our schools as anything other than the bogus delusions of men who are willfully ignorant of the power of God.

Goldstein is correct - Seventh-Day Darwinism is a frontal attack on the Gospel.

[pnattmbtc]

In regards to evolutionism, there's also the issue of how there could be death without sin. If there's death without sin, then that must mean that this is how God designed the world. Survival of the fittest, etc., would be part of God's nature and according to His principles in this case.

[karl]

In regards to evolutionism, there's also the issue of how there could be death without sin. If there's death without sin, then that must mean that this is how God designed the world. Survival of the fittest, etc., would be part of God's nature and according to His principles in this case.

If redemption is creation, theistic evolutionists (very much alive and well in your Adventist university science department) would have us saved by God in a very bizarre scenario of natural selection and survival of the fittest. Redemption, by its very definition, is not compatible with "survival of the fittest."

[teresaq]

Regarding our being a new creation ("new creature" in the KJV), here is a comment by E. J. Waggoner:

Quote:

There has been a great deal of idle speculation as to which is the greater, redemption or creation. Many have thought that redemption is a greater work than creation. Such speculation is idle, because only infinite power could perform either work, and infinite power cannot be measured by human minds. But while we cannot measure the power, we can easily settle the question of which is the greater, because the Scriptures give us the information. Neither is greater than the other, for both are the same. Redemption is creation. Redemption is the same power that was put forth in the beginning to create the world and all that is in it, now put forth to save men and the earth from the curse of sin.

The Scriptures are very clear on this point. The psalmist prayed, “Create in me a clean heart, and renew a right spirit within me” (Psalm 51:10). The apostle says, that “if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” (2 Corinthians 5:17), or a new creation. And again we read, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Compared with God, man is “less than nothing, and vanity.” Isaiah 40:17. In him “dwelleth no good thing” (Romans 7:18). Now the same power that in the beginning made the earth from nothing, takes man, if he is willing, and makes of him that which is “to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:6).

What Paul is discussing is clear from both the context and the language he uses.

but, that is not referring to our brain, which is part of our body, which will not be changed from its corrupt status til glorification...

i think the other side, while not agreeing with them especially, has valid points....take a dd-developmentally delayed person-give them the gospel--or a child--they are only going to be able to understand up to a point...full understanding will not come til glorification...it is quite possible why many will be laid to rest before it all hits us...

not sure if im able to clarify my thoughts...

[Twilight]

Quote:

Redemption is creation. Redemption is the same power that was put forth in the beginning to create the world and all that is in it, now put forth to save men and the earth from the curse of sin......

Compared with God, man is “less than nothing, and vanity.” Isaiah 40:17. In him “dwelleth no good thing” (Romans 7:18). Now the same power that in the beginning made the earth from nothing, takes man, if he is willing, and makes of him that which is “to the praise of the glory of His grace” (Ephesians 1:6).

THIS is why we should oppose the teaching of evolution in our schools as anything other than the bogus delusions of men who are willfully ignorant of the power of God.

Goldstein is correct - Seventh-Day Darwinism is a frontal attack on the Gospel.

Indeed.

Satan wants to remove the idea that God can create in us something new, something that has the divine thumbprint.

Evolution is a direct attack on Gods ability to create.

If we do not beleive that God created the universe, we will not believe that He can create in us a new heart.

[pnattmbtc]

Redemption, by its very definition, is not compatible with "survival of the fittest."

Indeed. To assert such is to assert that "survival of the fittest" is in harmony with God's character and principles. Agape is an entirely other principle. He who was rich, for our sake, became poor, that we, through His poverty, might become rich. This principle is in harmony with God's character.

[pnattmbtc]

p:What Paul is discussing is clear from both the context and the language he uses.

but, that is not referring to our brain, which is part of our body, which will not be changed from its corrupt status til glorification...

t:i think the other side, while not agreeing with them especially, has valid points.

[Robert]

We are a new creation because Christ has changed us from within. "The kingdom of God is within you."

You need to examine your quotes instead of spiritualizing them to fit your theology. Here's the context:

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself in Jesus Christ....

Paul, again, is speaking of our position "in Christ" through faith. In Him we have a glorified humanity free from mortality...free from the sin nature and free from all sin.

This is not true of the believer....The only change that has taken place is in the mind/heart.

[Robert]

He who was rich, for our sake, became poor, that we, through His poverty, might become rich.

Not worldly riches, but heavenly ones.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

He who was rich, for our sake, became poor, that we, through His poverty, might become rich.

Not worldly riches, but heavenly ones.

But VERY few people are interested in sharing Christ's poverty that they might become rich.

We do not want to share in His sufferings by which He sanctified Himself. He is willing to sanctify us the way He sanctified Himself, by yoking us with Himself to overcome as He overcame. But this goes against our carnal natures and we shrink from it. Some even develop theology which claims that, because Christ did this FOR us, we don't need to do it WITH Him. This theology actually drives a wedge between us and Christ.

Do we believe that, because Christ paid it all, it is not necessary for us to follow in His footsteps?

[Guest]

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

[pnattmbtc]

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself in Jesus Christ....

Paul, again, is speaking of our position "in Christ" through faith.

[karl]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself in Jesus Christ....

Paul, again, is speaking of our position "in Christ" through faith.

It's clear this isn't what he is speaking of. He says, "who has reconciles us to Himself in Jesus Christ." Reconciliation is not a question of position, but of two parties which were at odds with one another being brought together. Since God was never against us, this is referring to us, when we accept Christ, and are reconciled to God by faith.

The doctrine of unilateral reconciliation has done much damage in Christianity. It is a foundation stone of legalist (forensic) thinking.

[pnattmbtc]

karl, could you explain your thinking please? (regarding your last remark)

[karl]

The doctrine of unilateral reconciliation has done much damage in Christianity. It is a foundation stone of legalist (forensic) thinking.

[Twilight]

Amen. :-)