Character change pre-resurrection?

[pnattmbtc]

Thanks karl for the explanation.

A brief comment is that Christ did a corporate work for the entire human race. It's not true to say, "Yes, Christ died for you, but it does you no good if you do not accept Him." In reality, we owe everything we have and are to Christ, regardless of whether we accept Him or not. One could rightly say, "Yes, Christ died for you, but it will not result in your having eternal life unless you accept Him" or, taking into account that God actually wants people to be saved, and the Holy Spirit is directing everyone to Christ, "Yes, Christ died for you, but is will not result in your having eternal life, unless you do not resist the Holy Spirit."

I'll try summing things up in this way:

1.There is a relationship which needs to be healed, and that healing takes place as we recognize the truth regarding God (His character of love), sin (leads to death), and ourselves (our selfishness/hatred of God and our fellows). Our repentance (itself a gift) allows the healing to take place.

2.The gift of Christ is effective for every human being to the extent of having physical life and being saved from the slavery of Satan, which would have encompassed the entire human race, had Christ not intervened. E.g. "To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life" (DA 660). So Christ's death has accomplished something, and does accomplish something, for every human being (although one can still be lost, by refusing the gift of eternal life, which is conditional).

3.The Holy Spirit is actively drawing people to Christ. In order to be lost, a person must resist this drawing, must refuse to respond.

[karl]

A brief comment is that Christ did a corporate work for the entire human race. It's not true to say, "Yes, Christ died for you, but it does you no good if you do not accept Him." In reality, we owe everything we have and are to Christ, regardless of whether we accept Him or not.

Maybe in our eyes we have been given some elevated standing, but in the eyes of Christ, being unsaved seems to be synonymous with being dead.

Let the dead bury the dead.

Dead in trespasses and sins.

In the day that ye eat of it, ye shall surely die

[pnattmbtc]

p:A brief comment is that Christ did a corporate work for the entire human race. It's not true to say, "Yes, Christ died for you, but it does you no good if you do not accept Him." In reality, we owe everything we have and are to Christ, regardless of whether we accept Him or not.

k:Maybe in our eyes we have been given some elevated standing,

[karl]

We've been over this ground before. WIthout the plan of salvation, man would not have a second probation, so in that sense we can say that man has been saved from not not getting a second probation. Is this an elevated position salvifically? I say "No." You can say that having a Mediator is better than not having one, and I agree, big time. But does that make man's position any different? Does that change the record on the books? No, it does not. It changes man's potential, but not his "lost" status.

"The death of Christ was to forever settle the question of the validity of the law of Jehovah. Having suffered the full penalty for a guilty world, Jesus became the mediator between God and man, to restore the repenting soul to favor with God by giving him grace to keep the law of the Most High." {RC 53.5}

The repenting soul is restored to favor with God - not the unrepentant soul. The unrepentant soul stands condemned/unreconciled because he hath not believed on the Son.

[pnattmbtc]

We've been over this ground before.

[karl]

Youse guys are OK when yer together, but individually ya got problems.

[pnattmbtc]

karl, I doubt you and I are disagreeing much, because we both see things non-forensically. It's a matter of how one puts things.

"To the death of Christ we owe even our earthly lives," has been a principle that has profoundly my life. Christ actually *did* something for every human being, something which was of great cost to Himself, and to God. This is a point which is often not grasped, and certainly is not emphasized as it should be, and this has been the burden of my last few comments regarding this.

[karl]

As long as you don't have Christ buying off God or satisfying some cosmic bloodthirst I'll just not bother you about this.

I suspect that God could have extended a second probation to man without dying. However, I believe He could not save us without dying, not because of His requirements, but because of our need to see the truth about the love and character of God and about the malignity of sin.

This is all about getting men and women to, of their own volition, submit to Him eternally.

[pnattmbtc]

I suspect that God could have extended a second probation to man without dying. However, I believe He could not save us without dying, not because of His requirements, but because of our need to see the truth about the love and character of God and about the malignity of sin.