The great "Ground Zero mosque" hoax

[bonnie]

The victims would be much better off if they forgave the hi-jackers. For that matter, the entire country would be much better off if we forgave the hi-jackers. That doesn't mean we stop hunting them down and holding them accountable. It means we bury the axe.

Forgiving someone does not mean you accept everything that "someone "does"

As you cannot tell from the victims families who has and who has not forgiven and those simply that don't want what they see as a memorial to those that took so much from them.

[bonnie]

Mischief in Manhattan

Ottawa Citizen

We Muslims know the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation

By Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah, Citizen Special August 17, 2010

A New York City Police officer looks on as the Landmarks Preservation Commission prepares to rule on August 3, 2010 that a 152-year-old building is not a historical site, and can be demolished making way for the construction of a mosque a few blocks from the Ground Zero site in Manhattan. Controversial plans to build a mosque near the site of the New York towers destroyed in the Septmeber 11, 2001 terror attacks cleared a big hurdle Tuesday as a city panel voted to end protected status for an existing structure on the site.

A New York City Police officer looks on as the Landmarks Preservation Commission prepares to rule on August 3, 2010 that a 152-year-old building is not a historical site, and can be demolished making way for the construction of a mosque a few blocks from the Ground Zero site in Manhattan. Controversial plans to build a mosque near the site of the New York towers destroyed in the Septmeber 11, 2001 terror attacks cleared a big hurdle Tuesday as a city panel voted to end protected status for an existing structure on the site.

Photograph by: Timothy A. Clary, AFP/Getty Images

Last week, a journalist who writes for the North Country Times, a small newspaper in Southern California, sent us an e-mail titled "Help." He couldn't understand why an Islamic Centre in an area where Adam Gadahn, Osama bin Laden's American spokesman came from, and that was home to three of the 911 terrorists, was looking to expand.

The man has a very valid point, which leads to the ongoing debate about building a Mosque at Ground Zero in New York. When we try to understand the reasoning behind building a mosque at the epicentre of the worst-ever attack on the U.S., we wonder why its proponents don't build a monument to those who died in the attack?

New York currently boasts at least 30 mosques so it's not as if there is pressing need to find space for worshippers. The fact we Muslims know the idea behind the Ground Zero mosque is meant to be a deliberate provocation to thumb our noses at the infidel. The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as "Fitna," meaning "mischief-making" that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

The Koran commands Muslims to, "Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book" -- i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of "fitna"

So what gives Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf of the "Cordoba Initiative" and his cohorts the misplaced idea that they will increase tolerance for Muslims by brazenly displaying their own intolerance in this case?

Do they not understand that building a mosque at Ground Zero is equivalent to permitting a Serbian Orthodox church near the killing fields of Srebrenica where 8,000 Muslim men and boys were slaughtered?

There are many questions that we would like to ask. Questions about where the funding is coming from? If this mosque is being funded by Saudi sources, then it is an even bigger slap in the face of Americans, as nine of the jihadis in the Twin Tower calamity were Saudis.

If Rauf is serious about building bridges, then he could have dedicated space in this so-called community centre to a church and synagogue, but he did not. We passed on this message to him through a mutual Saudi friend, but received no answer. He could have proposed a memorial to the 9/11 dead with a denouncement of the doctrine of armed jihad, but he chose not to.

It's a repugnant thought that $100 million would be brought into the United States rather than be directed at dying and needy Muslims in Darfur or Pakistan.

Let's not forget that a mosque is an exclusive place of worship for Muslims and not an inviting community centre. Most Americans are wary of mosques due to the hard core rhetoric that is used in pulpits. And rightly so. As Muslims we are dismayed that our co-religionists have such little consideration for their fellow citizens and wish to rub salt in their wounds and pretend they are applying a balm to sooth the pain.

The Koran implores Muslims to speak the truth, even if it hurts the one who utters the truth. Today we speak the truth, knowing very well Muslims have forgotten this crucial injunction from Allah.

If this mosque does get built, it will forever be a lightning rod for those who have little room for Muslims or Islam in the U.S. We simply cannot understand why on Earth the traditional leadership of America's Muslims would not realize their folly and back out in an act of goodwill.

As for those teary-eyed, bleeding-heart liberals such as New York mayor Michael Bloomberg and much of the media, who are blind to the Islamist agenda in North America, we understand their goodwill.

Unfortunately for us, their stand is based on ignorance and guilt, and they will never in their lives have to face the tyranny of Islamism that targets, kills and maims Muslims worldwide, and is using liberalism itself to destroy liberal secular democratic societies from within.

Raheel Raza is author of Their Jihad ... Not my Jihad, and Tarek Fatah is author of The Jew is Not My Enemy (McClelland & Stewart), to be launched in October. Both sit on the board of the Muslim Canadian Congress.

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Mischief+Manhattan/3370303/story.html#ixzz0xM03D96F

[lazarus]

For that matter, the entire country would be much better off if we forgave the hi-jackers. That doesn't mean we stop hunting them down and holding them accountable. It means we bury the axe.

That's an interesting approach to forgiveness. Does God forgive us and then still hunt us down in order to punish us. Forgiveness means burying the, axe, sword and the M16 and the predator drone too!

[Overaged]

The victims would be much better off if they forgave the hi-jackers. For that matter, the entire country would be much better off if we forgave the hi-jackers. That doesn't mean we stop hunting them down and holding them accountable. It means we bury the axe.

I am not sure how you could make such an outrageous statement. How on earth would you know who has or has not forgiven? Not wanting this so called Mosque at or near ground zero has nothing to do with "forgiveness." I'd like to see you even half prove that one.

[Overaged]

Other words would better describe what Shane said, than does "interesting; but I agree with you here. There is a difference between "forgiving" someone and picking up an AK 47 to 'hunt them down', and "forgiving" someone, and asking them to respect the 911 'burial ground' a certain way, by not building at/near this site. It's similar to natives asking us "whites" to respect certain of their burial grounds. Has nothing to do with "forgiveness."

[lazarus]

A mosque honoring the hijackers is the way those whose lives were most affected by the attack see it.

They are wrong. This is the reason why we don't place victims of the crime on the jury. A judge who has been directly affected by a case does not judge the case.

The prejudice I see hear is not under a rock. It's flashing in neon lights and has bells on it.

You posted it. Having a mosque, any mosque near ground zero is like placing a memorial to the hijackers. That is what you said. If you cannot understand the prejudice in that then clearly you cannot understand your own prejudice.

If you are judging these particular adherents to the Muslim faith on the basis of 19 dead terrorists then that is prejudice. You are making judgments about them without knowing them or hearing from them.

If you don't care who or what they are, only that they are Muslims, then again we must add willful ignorance to your position. Christians, rightly, do not bear responsibility for the actions of all Christians neither should Muslims.

[fccool]

...I see our country teetering on the edge of an abyss. At its bottom brews the simmering bile of deep, dark hatred. Hatred that is dividing our country. Politically. Racially. Geographically. In every way, whether it's political vendettas, sports brawls, corporate takeovers, high school gangs and cliques. The American competitive ethic has changed from "let's beat the other guy" to "let's destroy the other guy." Too many, too many are too willing to stigmatize and demonize others for political advantage, for money or for ratings. The vilification is savage...

This harvest of hatred is then sold as news, as entertainment, as government policy. Such hateful, divisive forces are leading us to one awful end: America's own form of Balkanization. A weakened country of rabid factions each less free, united only by hatred of one another. In the past 10 days we've seen these brutal blows attempting to fracture America into two such camps One camp would be the majority, people who believe our Founders guaranteed our security with the right to defend ourselves, our families, and our country. The other camp would be a large minority of people who believe that we will buy security if we will just surrender these freedoms....

I am asking all of us on both sides to take one step back from the edge. Then another step. And another. However many it takes to get back to that place where we are all Americans. Different, imperfect, diverse, but one nation, indivisible. This cycle of tragedy-driven hatred must stop. Because so much more connects us than that which divides us. And because tragedy has been and will always be with us. Somewhere right now evil people are planning evil things. All of us will do everything meaningful, everything we can do to prevent it. But each horrible act can't become an axe for opportunists to cleave the very bill of rights that binds us. America must stop this predictable pattern of reaction, when an isolated terrible event occurs, our phones ring demanding that the NRA explain the inexplicable. Why us? Because their story needs a villain. They want us to play the heavy in their drama of packaged grief. To provide riveting programming to run between commercials for cars and cat food. The dirty secret of this day and age is that political gain and media ratings all too often bloom on fresh graves....

We cannot -- we must not -- let tragedy lay waste to the most rare and hard-won human right in history. A nation cannot gain safety by giving up freedom. This truth is older than our country. Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin said that....

Now, if you disagree, that's your right. I respect that. But we will not relinquish it or be silenced about it, or be told, "Do not come here. You are unwelcome in your own land." Let us go from this place, from this huge room, renewed in spirit and dedicated against hatred. We have work to do, hearts to heal, evil to defeat, and a country to unite. We may have differences, and we will again suffer tragedy almost beyond description. But when the sun sets on Denver tonight, and forever more, let it always set on We, the People. Secure in our land of the free and home of the brave.

[fccool]

Charlton Heston spoke the above during NRA rallies in the wake of Columbine shooting, when people were giving similar arguments to stop these rallies to honor the families of the victims.

There should not be any difference in this case. We should not use victims as hostages of political prejudice.

Freedom of religion should not be taken away. This is what we stand for, and no amount of guilt trip should change it. If these people can afford to buy the land and build the mosque... so be it.

Unfortunately, many people are blinded by their prejudice, and they don't see that:

1) Islam does not seek to blow everyone up, and we should stop associating Islam with hijackers. Many of these people were in a strip bar the night before drinking it up. Calling these people Moslems would be like calling Hitler Christian.

2) This country was built around principles of separation of church and state, with the idea that state should not dictate religion.

3) There's no "us" and "them" in this country. It's just us. If you don't like it, feel free to go somewhere mosques are illegal, and Christianity is the sate religion (like Vatican for example).

[bonnie]

They are wrong. This is the reasons why we don't place victims of the crime on the jury. A judge who has been directly affected by a case does not judge the case.

[bonnie]

I don't think it has ever come up but would you tell me how you feel about the confederate flag?

Seems I remember at different times quite a hizzy fit was thrown by african americans because of what they claimed it represented. I don't believe it was illgeal so what was the problem again

[bonnie]

There should not be any difference in this case. We should not use victims as hostages of political prejudice.

Freedom of religion should not be taken away. This is what we stand for, and no amount of guilt trip should change it. If these people can afford to buy the land and build the mosque... so be it.

[Dr. Shane]

That's an interesting approach to forgiveness. Does God forgive us and then still hunt us down in order to punish us. Forgiveness means burying the, axe, sword and the M16 and the predator drone too!

Let's put it in the criminal perspective. Can we forgive a man that has swindled a bunch of elderly people out of their life savings? Indeed we can. Does that mean we do not sentence the person to prison? No, it doesn't. That person still has to pay the consequences for his actions. By forgiving him or her we release them from our condemnation, but they still have to suffer the consequences.

When terrorists attacked us, our nation had the obligation to go after them and make them suffer the consequences. However President Bush went to great lengths to help the civilians in the countries we were attacking. President Bush even asked American children to send money to the White House to be used to help children in Afghanistan and Iraq. Millions of dollars of humanitarian aid have flowed into those countries since we have been going after terrorists there.

I have little doubt that if President Bush were still President, the Muslims would be building their mosque in Manhattan and it wouldn't even be making the news. One of the reason for that is that the right-wing is making most of the noise about this and obviously he had a greater influence with them.

[Dr. Shane]

Not wanting this so called Mosque at or near ground zero has nothing to do with "forgiveness."

I think it has everything to do with forgiveness. When President Obama said this was not a Christian nation, the right-wing went crazy. Now they are proving him right.

[Dr. Shane]

The prejudice I see hear is not under a rock. It's flashing in neon lights and has bells on it.

You posted it. Having a mosque, any mosque near ground zero is like placing a memorial to the hijackers. That is what you said. If you cannot understand the prejudice in that then clearly you cannot understand your own prejudice.

Absolutely right, Pastor.

[Dr. Shane]

Many of these people were in a ##### bar the night before drinking it up. Calling these people Moslems would be like calling Hitler Christian.

One must understand why they were there. They were trying to disguise themselves so no one would suspect them of being religious fanatics. So they went to that place to honor Allah.

[Dr. Shane]

No one's freedom of religion is being taken away.

A lot of the right-wingers not only want to take away their religious liberty but also their private property rights. That is insane. Talk about giving up rights for security. That is absolutely crazy.

[Woody]

Property rights are taken away from Americans each and every day. It's called zoning.

[SivartM]

If this was about zoning, people would not be making such a big deal out of it. What if a Christian ministry was proposed in the same location?

[Woody]

Many Christian churches have been denied building permits due to complaints from neighbors etc and zoning laws.

[SivartM]

But is there a zoning law that prohibits this particular building from being built?

[Woody]

There could be if enough complained I guess. This is my point. Zoning is influenced by public input and complaints. Christian churches are denied building permits because of this all the time. Nothing new here.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

No one's freedom of religion is being taken away.

A lot of the right-wingers not only want to take away their religious liberty but also their private property rights. That is insane. Talk about giving up rights for security. That is absolutely crazy.

No it isn't. Most agree that there is no legal reason this mosque can't be built there.

What is insane is to keep saying something often enough in hopes of making it true.

It is legal,most understand that.

The only way the mosque won't be built there is if minds are changed. That is unlikely to happen.

[bonnie]

If this was about zoning, people would not be making such a big deal out of it. What if a Christian ministry was proposed in the same location?

A christian ministry did not cause the attack of 9/11

Obviously if it were about zoning it would not be the deal it is.

Zoning did not cause 9/11 either.

Those wishing to build the mosque did not cause the attack either,but the mosque does symbolize to those that lost their family members a reminder of that day.

Others can condemn them for being unreasonable bigots but until those same can walk in their shoes they are not talking from personal experience

[Guest]

I don't think it has ever come up but would you tell me how you feel about the confederate flag?

Seems I remember at different times quite a hizzy fit was thrown by african americans because of what they claimed it represented. I don't believe it was illgeal so what was the problem again

I had forgotten about this. Good observation/memory. The shoe was on the other foot then, so of course that was altogether different.

Different how?

[Guest]

The prejudice I see hear is not under a rock. It's flashing in neon lights and has bells on it.

You posted it. Having a mosque, any mosque near ground zero is like placing a memorial to the hijackers. That is what you said. If you cannot understand the prejudice in that then clearly you cannot understand your own prejudice.