The great "Ground Zero mosque" hoax

[fccool]

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You are quite right.So why so much objections to those that don't want the mosque there

It's merely a response to the objections that they pose. That's the basis for the civil discourse. Should these people not be objected? That would mean that we agree with them and should do as they please. The objection in this case sides with our constitutional principles that these people are objecting to.

If they had their way, they would stop that community center from being built.

[fccool]

This talk of forgiving and forgetting (or not) misses a key element of forgiveness and the memory of the hurt and pain that brings it about...

I don't understand your point. Do Muslims have to be forgiven for other people hijacking their religion and belief to carry out terror and mayhem? What does that have to do with American Muslims who were among the dead, scared, and grieving people during that day... and fighting terrorism along with Jews, Atheists, and Christians in the US?

Should Christians stop building Churches around Holocaust museums because Hitler aligned himself with Christianity, and believed to be a God-fearing and God-given fuerer?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

shades of Chamberlain

[fccool]

There were other reasons for that war. Not everyone who fought for the South was fighting to keep their slaves. And to put it so simplistically is a disservice to all those that fought and died because they believed in one side more than the other. And to label them all as racist is both unfair and untrue.

And when Southerners fly the Confederate flag, it means different things to different people. Ask 100 different people and you will get 100 different answers, but to label them as rasist because they want to fly that flag is again unfair and mostly untrue--there are always a few rotten apples that spoils it for the rest of us.

I'm going to repeat what I've said:

The most devisive issue of the civil war (the obvious origin of the flag) was that of racial equality. Anyone that would claim today that the south wasn’t on the wrong side of that issue is a racist.

Did I say there were no other reasons? Did I say everyone waving flag is a racist? I've said that if anyone would claim that south was on the right side of racial issue is by definition a racist. If you disagree with that statement, that slavery is the right way to go and that blacks are sub-human... you are a racist. That was my point.

I understand the urge to respond, but I'd like you to read what I've said completely before ascribing something to my argument that was not there at all.

[fccool]

shades of Chamberlain

To be fair, he was deceived.

[bonnie]

This talk of forgiving and forgetting (or not) misses a key element of forgiveness and the memory of the hurt and pain that brings it about. Our brains do not have a delete function, so we will always have certain memories stored in our brains. I used to think that God had an advantage because he could purge a memory when he forgives. But I have since learned that the verse in Scripture that says He remembers our sins no more is more about choice than brain function. God chooses to not remember our sins any more. He chooses to not hold them against us. He neutralizes the pain and hurt of that memory. It is about a change of attitude toward the one forgiven. That memory of the hurt no longer is a part of that attitude and that memory does not get in the way of the relationship. The memory is not brought up again. We can choose to do that. Or we can choose to dwell on the hurt and pain and our desire to get even.

Your blanket statements concerning forgiveness would be seen as self righteous by many

My parents remembered their two dead daughters every day of the rest of their lives.They saw their faces first thing waking in the morning and their faces were the last they saw before falling asleep.

They missed them and there was hurt every day that they were no longer here.They had no desire to get even and were not angry.Ironically they forgave this man when his own family would not.My parents refused to press charges.That is what would have been required in the time frame my sisters were killed.

You may think their memory would not be brought up again.I don't know of one parent that has lost a child that does not want to remember them.Remembering them,while in some ways comforting, also brings painful memories.

[Tom Wetmore]

I don't understand your point. Do Muslims have to be forgiven for other people hijacking their religion and belief to carry out terror and mayhem? What does that have to do with American Muslims who were among the dead, scared, and grieving people during that day...

I do agree that the vast majority of Muslims, and in particular the man/group in question have not done us any harm for which we should forgive. It is quite like the story of Simon Wiesenthal as told in his book The Sunflower. As a prisoner he was brought to the bedside of a dying Nazi soldier that had committed unspeakable atrocities against Jews. The dying request of the Nazi was for forgiveness and Simon was summoned as sort of a proxy to offer that forgiveness. Simon was speechless and would not offer the forgiveness. He reasoned that this particular Nazi did not harm him and that only his victims could forgive him. He walked out of the room unable to offer this Nazi any solace or comfort. But that story haunted Simon his whole life and he has repeated asked others of all faiths what he should have done. Should he have offer forgiveness?

The point I was making was about the attitude of forgiveness. That attitude opens a door to a change of attitude not just against those that hurt us directly, but also those that we hate for what they have done to those near and dear to us, or that which is near in dear to us. That attitude change of forgiveness also translates us to a whole new attitude toward those for whom we have a displaced (or misplaced) anger, even if they do not deserve our anger or the vengeance that goes with it. Forgiveness is more about the forgiver than it is about the forgiven.

The point is that America needs a attitude change.

[fccool]

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The point I was making was about the attitude of forgiveness. That attitude opens a door to a change of attitude not just against those that hurt us directly, but also those that we hate for what they have done to those near and dear to us, or that which is near in dear to us. That attitude change of forgiveness also translates us to a whole new attitude toward those for whom we have a displaced (or misplaced) anger, even if they do not deserve our anger or the vengeance that goes with it. Forgiveness is more about the forgiver than it is about the forgiven.

The point is that America needs an attitude change.

This is quite true, yet it can not and will not happen in an environment where we think that Muslim religion is "un-American".

Muslim religion is as much American as waving a confederate flag, or being a homosexual without threat of punishment.

I think that the true forgiveness attitude stems from understanding our differences and being able to "forgive" other people for not agreeing with you, yet still respect them, granted that they don't seek to directly harm you, or force you to follow their view.

[fccool]

After having spent some years in the 'deep south', I am going to disagree with the idea that there are a 100 different reasons for flying the flag. There is no longer a reason for it, it symbolizes separation and slavery and those that most often want to keep it flying still have those same opinions. What was once considered racial or prejudicial is sometimes now considered 'factual'. It is very subtle, but when you have been away from that part of the country it is easier to be aware of the 'words'. Of course not everyone still espouses those same ideas, but, once you live there awhile you begin to understand alot has just gone 'underground'. So, again, the CF flag does not have a good connotation at this time in history and is offensive to many peoples ther and elsewhere around the country.

The real question is, why do people still want to fly that flag, given its history?

(Deep south=Mississippi, Carolina's, TN, etc)

There are different reasons outside of white supremacy ideals. I'll give you two scenarios.

I've played Basketball in different settings, and with different people. At one point of time I've played for a nationally known HS team in Miami, with me being only white player on the team.

We were on our way to Tennessee for a national tournament there. We stopped to eat at a fast food joint deep into Tennessee. As we walked in there were quite a few old people sitting and eating their food. As soon as they've noticed us, they left their food on the tables and walked out. The place was empty. It was quite obvious and in your face "You are not welcome here".

Scenario #2

I've played for a college team in Ohio with a lad from West Virginia. This guy was a die-hard CF "rebel", yet by no means a racist. He had no problems with hanging out with black guys on our team, and he liked it. Yet, he had a confederate flag on the back of his truck with inscription : "Heritage... not racism" What heritage was he talking about? The heritage of freedom in a broader sense. Freedom to own guns, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom from federal interference and excessive taxation.

Both cases might wave the flag, yet for very different reasons. And although very subtle, you would recognize one group from the other. Although I believe that there is a higher potential of racism on the side of those who are waving that flag, in fact it was revived by white supremacists in 60s who opposed integration. Hence, much of the painful associations that the black community sees it being a symbol of.

[bonnie]

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This is quite true, yet it can not and will not happen in an environment where we think that Muslim religion is "un-American".

What is thought of as unamerican is muslims that blow things up and kill people.

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Muslim religion is as much American as waving a confederate flag, or being a homosexual without threat of punishment.

Being homosexual is neither american or unamerican.

Having a confederate flag should not warrant punishment or disapproval.It is legal.

[SivartM]

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This is quite true, yet it can not and will not happen in an environment where we think that Muslim religion is "un-American".

What is thought of as unamerican is muslims that blow things up and kill people.

Then what is the problem with Muslims who do not?

[bonnie]

Then what is the problem with Muslims who do not?

That is something you have to answer.You and others have been quite adamant in claiming to know what others think concerning other muslims.

Those that come to this country and demand and have no desire to give something back do not represent all muslims or other immigrants.

The numbers are high enough it is a drain on our already stretched resources and takes from those that have a true need that they cannot meet for themselves.

If you make the mistake of saying so it is automatic,cold hearted conservative hopefully with a special place in hell reserved,bigot,racist,unchristian.

If you live in a state where muslims or other immigrants cause problems it is the fault of the american citizen.Those that come here and need a hand up should receive it. Not a permanent hand out.

Don't come here with the idea of not learning english,not assimilating to the degree you can get a decent job and care for yourself.

[fccool]

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Being homosexual is neither american or unamerican.

Having a confederate flag should not warrant punishment or disapproval.It is legal.

Finish my sentences... homosexuality without fear of punishment (aka Iran) is an American ideal.

Disapproval is not the same as prohibition. I have no problems with people voice opinion of disapproval, and there being a reasonable forum of ideas on neutral ground (outside of FOX and CNN propaganda that seems to be pushing the idea of "hurt families"). The anti-Muslim sentiments can't go on in this country if we want any chance of peace and understanding. It's very simple.

Objections to building the Muslim community center is an anti-Muslim sentiment masquerading itself as "sensitive to the victims of 9-11".

A week ago, the congress disproved heathcare coverage bill for caring for those whose health was damaged breathing the 9-11 air while trying to rescue the survivers. Both, republicans and democrats united in defeating the bill which would take the funding from illegally channeled corporate off-shore accounts and use it for the health-care of the heroes.

The media was nearly silent. I've never been so outraged in my life. It trully shows the level of corruption that floods Washington today on both sides.

Yet, the same people will use the fear and memory of the event as their platform for re-election. It's despicable.

The arguments against building the Muslim community center demonstrate the political ways of keeping Muslims from being accepted reality of our society. If there's a Muslim community center in the heart of New York, that would symbolize our acceptance of Muslim religion, and perhaps would even send the message to the fundamentalists that we are above hatred.

That was the idea behind integration. It was done gradually to the point where we have races co-exist outside of the prejudice we've observed in first part of 20th century.

The message was "We will not tolerate it" and the integration was forcefully done under the federal protection, while the south was protesting waving confederate flags around.

This is our chance to do the same. It can be a statement that would stop giving people around the world giving the wrong idea of America, and likewise start giving the fundamentalist youth around the world the correct idea about Islam being a religion of peace.

[bonnie]

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Disapproval is not the same as prohibition. I have no problems with people voice opinion of disapproval, and there being a reasonable forum of ideas on neutral ground (outside of FOX and CNN propaganda that seems to be pushing the idea of "hurt families"). The anti-Muslim sentiments can't go on in this country if we want any chance of peace and understanding. It's very simple.

Yes it is very simple,the mosque can't be prohibited. To stop anti-muslim sentiment,you need the muslim community to come half way.That is not done by "this is my way to heal old wounds and you better darn well like and accept it.

Somehow I don't think you have been taken into the confidence of anyone so that this is anymore than a uneducated opinion

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A week ago, the congress disproved heathcare coverage bill for caring for those whose health was damaged breathing the 9-11 air while trying to rescue the survivers. Both, republicans and democrats united in defeating the bill which would take the funding from illegally channeled corporate off-shore accounts and use it for the health-care of the heroes.

The republicans cannot stop anything. But take a look at the bill as a whole

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The media was nearly silent. I've never been so outraged in my life. It trully shows the level of corruption that floods Washington today on both sides.

Again, the republicans cannot prevent any bill from being passed

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Yet, the same people will use the fear and memory of the event as their platform for re-election. It's despicable.

I am sure there is posturing going on.I have also listened to the victims families.I believe they speak for themselves.Pretty sure you don't speak for them

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The arguments against building the Muslim community center demonstrate the political ways of keeping Muslims from being accepted reality of our society. If there's a Muslim community center in the heart of New York, that would symbolize our acceptance of Muslim religion, and perhaps would even send the message to the fundamentalists that we are above hatred.

What do the hundreds of mosque thru the US show? I know some of those in MN were recruiting centers for training terrorists. Sending young men back to learn how to be a proper little terrorists.

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That was the idea behind integration. It was done gradually to the point where we have races co-exist outside of the prejudice we've observed in first part of 20th century.

There is nothing gradual about integration of immigrants.

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The message was "We will not tolerate it" and the integration was forcefully done under the federal protection, while the south was protesting waving confederate flags around.

Waving the flag is as legal as protesting the mosque.

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This is our chance to do the same. It can be a statement that would stop giving people around the world giving the wrong idea of America, and likewise start giving the fundamentalist youth around the world the correct idea about Islam being a religion of peace.

I really get the impression you think you are the go-to person for peace and tranquility.I think I will pass

It is not up to me to give fundamentalist youth the correct idea of Islam being a religion of peace.That will come from Islam followers.

[LifeHiscost]

Why do so many people fall for this stuff?

The fact that there is a real and growing measure of hostility about this proposed mosque, should not be surprising.

The Islamic faith does not hold Jesus to be Who Jesus says He is and therefor, as such, cannot be a pathway to God the Father since Jesus says that He alone reveals the Father in Heaven.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6 KJV

Politics aside, our Father still wishes all humanity to recognize His Son for Who He is, and those who refuse will have difficulty getting what they ask that would make it more difficult to recognize the only door to the throne of God.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12 KJV

"“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."John 10:2 NKJV

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 10:7 KJV

" But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’"

Matthew 10:33-36 NKJV

Blessings!

[lazarus]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Why do so many people fall for this stuff?

The fact that there is a real and growing measure of hostility about this proposed mosque, should not be surprising.

The Islamic faith does not hold Jesus to be Who Jesus says He is and therefor, as such, cannot be a pathway to God the Father since Jesus says that He alone reveals the Father in Heaven.

:

I agree that the hostility is not surprising but it has, in my opinion, nothing to with Jesus. If you look at the reasons given for the objections it's about anger and fear. Islam is seen as a threat cultural and otherwise. If this was a Buddhist temple, there wouldn't be a whisper. This is a cultural battle.

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Politics aside, our Father still wishes all humanity to recognize His Son for Who He is, and those who refuse will have difficulty getting what they ask that would make it more difficult to recognize the only door to the throne of God.

Christian nations who "got what they asked for" (whatever those things are) were not necessary blessed by God. They went and fought for them, they took them. It has nothing to do with believing that Jesus is the son of God.

[lazarus]

What is thought of as unamerican is muslims that blow things up and kill people.

I think you made a mistake. Not unAmerican but inhuman.

[lazarus]

MSNBC's Joe Scarborough told Republicans Monday that they should "speak out against Newt Gingrich and the voices of hate." While he was at it, Scarborough threatened to leave the GOP for a party "that actually believes in small government."

Last week, Gingrich compared supporters of the mosque to Nazis. Appearing on Fox & Friends, Gingrich said, "Nazis don't have the right to put up a sign next to the Holocaust museum in Washington."

Prior to that, Gingrich argued that the mosque shouldn't be built near Ground Zero until churches and synagogues are allowed in Saudi Arabia.

"This is demagoguery of the first order," Scarborough, a former Republican congressman, said Monday. "And people in the Republican Party need to separate themselves from these voices."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/0823/scarborough-threatens-leave-gop-mosque-controversy/

[bonnie]

[

I agree that the hostility is not surprising but it has, in my opinion, nothing to with Jesus. If you look at the reasons given for the objections it's about anger and fear. Islam is seen as a threat cultural and otherwise. If this was a Buddhist temple, there wouldn't be a whisper. This is a cultural battle.

You are probably right. Buddhist are not responsible for 9/11.

You do not hear Buddhist have again tried to blow up something and kill as many as possible in the process.

The objection to the mosque in this place should be self explanatory.Those wishing to reach a better understanding with those that have been harmed by terrorists claiming the name of Islam would use tact and consideration.

[Dr. Shane]

I haven't heard of any conservatives willing to give up religious liberty and private property rights.

I have. Just tune into right-wing talk radio. It is full of it. It is insane that conservatives would oppose this mosque. It is downright crazy. This must be just political opportunism to make Obama look bad. It is a shameful tactic of the right wing for sure.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Are you not now guilty of lumping together a segment of society, just as surely as you decry such practices? You speak with forked tongue.

[fccool]

Are you not now guilty of lumping together a segment of society, just as surely as you decry such practices? You speak with forked tongue.

Rudy... could it be that Shane is capable of sarcasm perhaps

[Bravus]

Dunno if this has been posted here yet: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque

[jasd]

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Quote:Overaged

But I will give you "credit." You are good at twisting people's words.

It’s noetic science

[Dr. Shane]

Can anyone find a prominent conservative voice that has no objection to the mosque?