The great "Ground Zero mosque" hoax

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I don't think it has ever come up but would you tell me how you feel about the confederate flag?

Seems I remember at different times quite a hizzy fit was thrown by african americans because of what they claimed it represented. I don't believe it was illgeal so what was the problem again

I had forgotten about this. Good observation/memory. The shoe was on the other foot then, so of course that was altogether different.

Different how?

To some people it represented a horrible time in american history. No one that objected to the confederate flag lost mothers,fathers,sons or daughters. No one is alive today that can relate to what happened.It symbolized slavery to some,so what? To others it didn't.

Yet if I recall, enough noise was made over a legal act of showing the confederate flag that it was taken down.

How does this work?

[doug yowell]

[if you don't care who or what they are, only that they are Muslims, then again we must add willful ignorance to your position. Christians, rightly, do not bear responsibility for the actions of all Christians neither should Muslims.

So we're ok with applying that same principle across the board with race in the U.S.,right laz?All whites don't bear the responsibility for the actions of some whites?And with the posibility of future reprisals against Muslims,not all Americans bear responsibility for the minority? Are you now espousing the rejection of corporate responsibility? Would you go so far as to apply that thinking to the tea party,remember?? Are you ok now with the erection of a tea party meeting hall next to the NAACP headquarters?

[Woody]

Quote:

Are you ok now with the erection of a tea party meeting hall next to the NAACP headquarters?

The erection should be approved by both parties.

[Liz]

The erection should be approved by both parties.

[Tom Wetmore]

Are you thinking what I'm thinking... :smilewink:

[Woody]

I know NOTHING. I SEE nothing. I HEAR nothing. I have no knowledge of what ye b talkin' about.

[fccool]

Bonnie,

You can demonstrate all dissent you want. The fact remains that until there are judges in supreme court that don't value constitutional principles, your plight will be just that... a voice of a person who does not like the idea of Muslims building mosques where they legally can.

[fccool]

Not my thoughts. Those are by Charlton Heston at the NRA speech.

[bonnie]

Bonnie,

You can demonstrate all dissent you want. The fact remains that until there are judges in supreme court that don't value constitutional principles, your plight will be just that... a voice of a person who does not like the idea of Muslims building mosques where they legally can.

This isn't my plight.The supreme court should have nothing to do with this.They are within their legal rights to build.

I have nothing invested in that area.I did not lose family there.

[lazarus]

Quote:

So we're ok with applying that same principle across the board with race in the U.S.,right laz?All whites don't bear the responsibility for the actions of some whites?

Who has argued that all whites bear the responsibility of some whites?

Quote:

And with the posibility of future reprisals against Muslims,not all Americans bear responsibility for the minority?

Some conservatives and some media outlets would bear some responsibility but not all Americans.

Quote:

Are you now espousing the rejection of corporate responsibility?

Corporate liability is limited. GM was not held responsible for Toyota's recent problems. It would be ridiculous to hold all car makers responsible for Toyota's problems. It is equally ridiculous to hold all Muslims for the actions of 19 dead men.

Quote:

Would you go so far as to apply that thinking to the tea party,remember??

When the tea party initially refused to reject the racism within its ranks you have to wonder why? I guess why would you condemn something that you don't feel should be condemned. Finally, the tea party had to take action becasue one of it's spokesmen, repeat spokesmen made the evidence of racism undeniable.

If I remember correctly nearly all Islamic nations roundly condemned the 911 attacks immediately and offered help.

Quote:

Are you ok now with the erection of a tea party meeting hall next to the NAACP headquarters?

Lol, of course. That would interesting. I think the TP's would have more of an issue with that.

[lazarus]

You do not have the authority to say they are wrong.They are the ones that lost so much.

If you have the authority to say they are right I have the authority to say they are wrong.

[bonnie]

You neglected to answer how you feel on the topic of the confederate flag

Why shouldn't that flag be raised on all the government buildings of the southern states?

Why so many throwing a hizzy fit over that flag and the demands to stop using it?

[Dr. Shane]

The victims need to get over their victim status. Forgiveness makes that possible, Perhaps we need to send an army of forgiveness counselors to New York.

[Dr. Shane]

I am just amazed that so many right-wingers want to give up religious liberty and private property rights so easily.

[Woody]

I haven't heard of any conservatives willing to give up religious liberty and private property rights.

What I have heard is a discussion of simple zoning laws that exist all over America.

[bonnie]

The victims need to get over their victim status. Forgiveness makes that possible, Perhaps we need to send an army of forgiveness counselors to New York.

There are those that need to get over themselves. God has not granted anyone the ability to read their hearts.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

You do not have the authority to say they are wrong.They are the ones that lost so much.

If you have the authority to say they are right I have the authority to say they are wrong.

Forgot to answer your question.Those wanting to build a mosque in that spot are well within their rights.There should not be any attempt to block it legally.

Those losing the most have every right in this country to protest. Some seem to want to deny them that right by the continual judgments passed on them.

Maybe Shane's expert advice on the status of forgiveness extends to those that are still fighting over the flying the confederate flag.

their victim status. Forgiveness makes that possible,

[SivartM]

You neglected to answer how you feel on the topic of the confederate flag

Why shouldn't that flag be raised on all the government buildings of the southern states?

Why so many throwing a hizzy fit over that flag and the demands to stop using it?

Why should it? I didn't even know that was an issue. If they don't like the United States, they should just secede again.

[bonnie]

Why should it? I didn't even know that was an issue. If they don't like the United States, they should just secede again.

The question was not asked of you.Most do know it was a issue.

Let's see if I have this straight.

If the muslims or ??? does not like the US maybe they can go back to where they came from.

Those wishing to fly the confederate flag see it's symbolism as something different than those that strongly object.

Those wishing to see the mosque built there see it's symbolism see it as different than the families of the victims.

Those that object to the flag have forced the same thing that the families of the victims are attempting thru protest to stop it.

Explain the difference to me.

[phkrause]

Corporate liability is limited. GM was not held responsible for Toyota's recent problems. It would be ridiculous to hold all car makers responsible for Toyota's problems. It is equally ridiculous to hold all Muslims for the actions of 19 dead men.

If I remember correctly nearly all Islamic nations roundly condemned the 911 attacks immediately and offered help.

Excellent post Lazarus. It reminds me of must of my Jewish family that have done this. First they don't blame all Germans for what the Nazi's did. And most of the prominent Jews have already forgiven there oppressors. Sure they have not forgotten, but Jesus doesn't tell us to forget per say, but he does tell us to forgive. That's why so many who can not let go, are in such turmoil in there lives.

[fccool]

Why so many throwing a hizzy fit over that flag and the demands to stop using it?

For the same reason people throw a hizzy fit over flying a Nazi swastika. Raising confederate flag would actually symbolize secession. If that's what the states would like to do, then it would be fine and dandy.

If there's no secession, then why raise confederate flag? What would it represent? What purpose would it accomplish other than bring up the idea that South and North are still at war over economic quibbles, which keeping the slaves is a huge part of?

There is no confederacy anymore. There's one unified republic we call our country. What purpose does raising a confederate flag would serve other than discount that idea with a desire to break up the union? The most devisive issue of the civil war (the obvious origin of the flag) was that of racial equality. Anyone that would claim today that the south wasn’t on the wrong side of that issue is a racist. So when southerners fly the flag, what can it mean?

We surely can find plenty of positive things about Nazi regime, but do you think that Germans today can get away with proudly raising the black cross and inscribing it with "It's not racism, it's heritage!" ?

Sure, it can mean freedom in a true sense of limited government and freedom from federal interference. So, why not correct the context? Why wash it in the vague idea of the "southern pride" that many today would rightly equate with white supremacy?

Many would equate the flag with the broader definition of "freedom and respect", yet it's nothing of sort. Does the flag stand for freedom to be a Muslim, and freedom to be gay. I hardly think so. American flag certainly would be a better fit, not the one that re-appeared in 60s as a symbol of resistance to racial integration.

People could continue waving the Confederate flag all they want, after all this is what this country is all about, giving one a chance to make a statement... but these people likewise should expect a number of statements back as to why being proud of such heritage is not exactly a virtuous quality.

[lazarus]

Amen and amen!

[bonnie]

For the same reason people throw a hizzy fit over flying a Nazi swastika. Raising confederate flag would actually symbolize secession. If that's what the states would like to do, then it would be fine and dandy.

[Tom Wetmore]

This talk of forgiving and forgetting (or not) misses a key element of forgiveness and the memory of the hurt and pain that brings it about. Our brains do not have a delete function, so we will always have certain memories stored in our brains. I used to think that God had an advantage because he could purge a memory when he forgives. But I have since learned that the verse in Scripture that says He remembers our sins no more is more about choice than brain function. God chooses to not remember our sins any more. He chooses to not hold them against us. He neutralizes the pain and hurt of that memory. It is about a change of attitude toward the one forgiven. That memory of the hurt no longer is a part of that attitude and that memory does not get in the way of the relationship. The memory is not brought up again. We can choose to do that. Or we can choose to dwell on the hurt and pain and our desire to get even.

If the memory still stirs hurt and pain and anger and a desire to get even, forgiveness is not complete. On the other hand if there is a willingness to start afresh and experience a new beginning, the memory has lost its bite and forgiveness has taken hold of the memory and re-framed it as having no more power over our lives for the future. And we act accordingly.

[Liz]

There is no confederacy anymore. There's one unified republic we call our country. What purpose does raising a confederate flag would serve other than discount that idea with a desire to break up the union? The most devisive issue of the civil war (the obvious origin of the flag) was that of racial equality. Anyone that would claim today that the south wasn’t on the wrong side of that issue is a racist. So when southerners fly the flag, what can it mean?

There were other reasons for that war. Not everyone who fought for the South was fighting to keep their slaves. And to put it so simplistically is a disservice to all those that fought and died because they believed in one side more than the other. And to label them all as racist is both unfair and untrue.

And when Southerners fly the Confederate flag, it means different things to different people. Ask 100 different people and you will get 100 different answers, but to label them as rasist because they want to fly that flag is again unfair and mostly untrue--there are always a few rotten apples that spoils it for the rest of us.