Remnantitis

[antcreations]

Remnantitis: a chronic affliction found in some historic Adventists. This chronic condition prevents Adventists from seeing big things and thinking big thoughts when we think about The Kingdom of God.

(Seen in Facebook, posted as a status)

[antcreations]

Hi dgrimm60: go to facebook.com, you might want to register to view all the features.

Facebook is a social networking website-- a few people in this forum is in Facebook and I am connected to a few of our boardmates.

[Gerr]

How many do you know who are afflicted with this condition?

I have yet to meet one. Hardly any SDA I know of even mention the word.

[fccool]

Well, here's a simple test for you, Gerry. Hypothetical scenario:

If God himself would once again come down to earth and materialize as a human, and would say that the Bible was falsified and made up to create a system of religious control and misrepresentation of God by Satan and that neither He, nor Jesus had nothing to do with it, and that some things that Christ said were omitted, while other added to fit a certain model of religion...

Let's say He'll do a couple miracles and fulfill a couple prophecies for proof that He is in fact God... Would you believe Him?

I apologize in advance if it seems like hijacking of the thread, or if it seems like I'm defending atheism or debunking Christianity. I'm not. I'm asking a hypothetical question that I believe is relevant and important one.

[Gerr]

No. And that's a hypothetical answer. :)

[fccool]

So, hypothetically then... if there's truth outside of your system of belief, you would not be able to know it due to the immune system that is embedded into your belief system I.E. even if God himself attempts to teach you with certain reality (given that what you believe is not correct), then it would not matter to you.

Don't you find it any bit unsettling?

[SivartM]

I think the question would be if it was actually God who was teaching it.

[Outta Here]

Well, here's a simple test for you, Gerry. Hypothetical scenario:

If God himself would once again come down to earth and materialize as a human, and would say that the Bible was falsified and made up to create a system of religious control and misrepresentation of God by Satan and that neither He, nor Jesus had nothing to do with it, and that some things that Christ said were omitted, while other added to fit a certain model of religion...

Let's say He'll do a couple miracles and fulfill a couple prophecies for proof that He is in fact God... Would you believe Him?

I apologize in advance if it seems like hijacking of the thread, or if it seems like I'm defending atheism or debunking Christianity. I'm not. I'm asking a hypothetical question that I believe is relevant and important one.

Or, let's just say that maybe She'll come down and debunk the myth that God is a "He"; that maybe She'll do a couple of miracles and fulfill a couple of prophecies for proof that She is in fact God; and that She'll say that this misrepresentation of God was given to us by Jesus and that Satan was actually Her One and Only: and that some things that Satan said were misrepresented....

And so on and so forth.

The truth of the matter is, we have the written word as it stands. We study the written word, we pray to God and seek truth as He reveals it to us. We are to test and prove that He is good. We can believe what is written as it stands to evidence in our experiences.

Is your experience different? If so, how?

[Gerr]

So, hypothetically then... if there's truth outside of your system of belief, you would not be able to know it due to the immune system that is embedded into your belief system I.E. even if God himself attempts to teach you with certain reality (given that what you believe is not correct), then it would not matter to you.

Don't you find it any bit unsettling?

Except your hypothetical has no resemblance to reality. Miracles are NEVER to be accepted as the evidence for truth. The devil can perform miracles too. God does not contradict His own word.

[phkrause]

Again as I've said before, either on this thread or another one, did not Herod ask for a miracle? And what did Jesus do for him?? If it takes a miracle for us to believe, than we can throw Faith out the door, for there is no need for it.

[Gerr]

Good point, PK.

[fccool]

Miracles are NEVER to be accepted as the evidence for truth. The devil can perform miracles too. God does not contradict His own word.

Wasn't that the reason that Jews did not believe Christ? - God does not contradict His own word.

That's why I posed the question. What if God came down and said that this word is not His, and just asked you to believe Him on basis that He is God? My point is that you would reject Him, just like Jews rejected Jesus believing in their own version of theological ontology.

[Gerr]

What was God's word that Jesus contradicted?

[Woody]

Remnantitis: a chronic affliction found in some historic Adventists. This chronic condition prevents Adventists from seeing big things and thinking big thoughts when we think about The Kingdom of God.

(Seen in Facebook, posted as a status)

Good One Antcreations. Yes, I've seen many SDAs who suffer from this affliction. And it's a great hinderance to the spreading of the Gospel. As it is a chronic condition .... I'm not sure that it will be cured in these members. But we can take steps to prevent it from spreading.

[fccool]

What was God's word that Jesus contradicted?

I'm not saying that He did. They simply built up a systematic theology ... i.e. their version of God's truth. So, when God himself came down, they were using the arguments of:

1) Your miracles are of Satan

2) God said that you would come, false prophet

3) You say something different than what we believe, thus you're wrong

4) We know that you are wrong, because scripture is right... and God told us to do something different

So, they did not believe for the most part.

My question if rather hypothetical, but it's no more hypothetical than our belief system. What if there is God, yet the Biblical account of Him is in fact a fabrication for whatever reason.

So, in this scenario... if God came down to earth in human form, and tried to reason without resorting to miraculous tricks. Christians would not believe Him, neither would Muslims. Such theology automatically would generate the "anti-bodies" that would reject anything other than the belief taught in churches.

This approach does bother me, since I do claim to seek and follow God no matter what. I don't believe that Bible is incorrect, yet if it is... are we prepared to accept it, or will we go on protecting our mental investment thinking that we have nothing to live for if it is not correct?

Sort of goes the same for E.G.White's writings.

[Kevin H]

Well, here's a simple test for you, Gerry. Hypothetical scenario:

If God himself would once again come down to earth and materialize as a human, and would say that the Bible was falsified and made up to create a system of religious control and misrepresentation of God by Satan and that neither He, nor Jesus had nothing to do with it, and that some things that Christ said were omitted, while other added to fit a certain model of religion...

Let's say He'll do a couple miracles and fulfill a couple prophecies for proof that He is in fact God... Would you believe Him?

I apologize in advance if it seems like hijacking of the thread, or if it seems like I'm defending atheism or debunking Christianity. I'm not. I'm asking a hypothetical question that I believe is relevant and important one.

This is a very good question and what Revelation and Mrs. White predicts for the last days: The last deception will be to make no effect the spirit of prophecy (the whole spirit of prophecy, the writings of the prophets over the centuries). Revelation 13 talks about the false prophet being able to call fire down from heaven. This is a reference to the story of Elijah where whoever answers by fire is God; and indicates that this last counterfeit is so perfect that it is able to convince us that it is indeed from God. Jesus felt that in choosing to die for us that he was going to be lost and die forever. The 144,000 will have a similar experience, feeling that they are going to be lost because they are rejecting Jesus by clinging to the Bible. But they are willing to follow Jesus as revealed in the Bible even if it means giving up eternal life, getting as far away as possible from selfishness.

Satan is already laying the ground work both in outside attacks on the Bible such as with secularism and evolution etc. but also attacking inside where we believe we are safe by setting up traditions, including Fundamentalism, that we tend to willingly embrace yet when the final delusion comes, we will learn that the Bible does not fit our traditions and the fundamentalist standard. What we saw with Elder Canright and Ellen White-- he would not have needed to give up belief in her writings if he was not a fundamentalist. What we saw with many Adventists when "The White Lie" came out, is only a foretaste as to what we are going to face with the Bible as a whole. Those who stubbornly hold to Fundamentalism and traditions will find that these are the source of their faith, not the Bible and they will either have to give up Fundamentalism and tradition, or else they will give up the Bible. And if they hold on to the Bible, they will again feel lost clinging to this untrustworthy old book and rejecting the visible manifestations of God, plus they will have to under this stress try to redefine their relationship with the Bible.

[fccool]

Kevin, but aren't you just further proving my point . If God came down today and state that Bible is incorrect description of Him, and it was in fact true (hypothetically), then you would label Him a false prophet and Satan.

[phkrause]

Kevin, but aren't you just further proving my point . If God came down today and state that Bible is incorrect description of Him, and it was in fact true (hypothetically), then you would label Him a false prophet and Satan.

I'm not disagreeing with you for argument sake, but I see a problem with your hypothetical. Usually when people use a hypothetical, it is something that can actually take place. The one your stating will never happen. Just my opinion.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Sort of goes the same for E.G.White's writings.

In my experience, if God came down and pointed out a few errors in Scripture, She would be met with much less doubt and rejection than if God said there were a few errors in EGW's writings.

While admittedly your hypothetical was over the top, the point is that many good, devoted Adventists will not believe it is Jesus returning in the clouds before their very own eyes if for example that coming is not preceded by Sunday laws and specific persecution direct at them personally because they go to Church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

But as Jesus said, in the final analysis (judgment if you prefer), it will all boil down to a cup of cold water for a thirsty person... And many will miss that opportunity because they are too busy preaching on the Sabbath.

[doug yowell]

[While admittedly your hypothetical was over the top, the point is that many good, devoted Adventists will not believe it is Jesus returning in the clouds before their very own eyes if for example that coming is not preceded by Sunday laws and specific persecution direct at them personally because they go to Church on Saturday instead of Sunday.

But as Jesus said, in the final analysis (judgment if you prefer), it will all boil down to a cup of cold water for a thirsty person... And many will miss that opportunity because they are too busy preaching on the Sabbath.

Seems you're suggesting that Jesus missed it when asked which commandment was the greatest? You're not saying that the commandment to feed the poor is more important to God than the command to honor His holy day, are you??

[doug yowell]

Kevin, but aren't you just further proving my point . If God came down today and state that Bible is incorrect description of Him, and it was in fact true (hypothetically), then you would label Him a false prophet and Satan.

So if God came down and stated that the Bible WAS a correct description of Himself ("You have seen me,you have seen the Father")how would we label those who didn't believe Him? The principle goes both ways and there needs to be some way of objectively weighing the evidences, don't ya think?Is it really possible to KNOW the True God?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Kevin, but aren't you just further proving my point . If God came down today and state that Bible is incorrect description of Him, and it was in fact true (hypothetically), then you would label Him a false prophet and Satan.

I'm not disagreeing with you for argument sake, but I see a problem with your hypothetical. Usually when people use a hypothetical, it is something that can actually take place. The one your stating will never happen. Just my opinion.

He who controls the hypothetical,determines it's outcome!

[John317]

If God came down today and state that Bible is incorrect description of Him, and it was in fact true (hypothetically), then you would label Him a false prophet and Satan.

Christ is our pattern and example. We need to do the same as Jesus did when Satan came to him: meet all his temptations with "It is written." He stood like a rock on the testimony of the word of God.

The time will come when Satan will come in the guise of Christ and do exactly what you suggest. Fallen angels will also appear as the apostles raised from the grave and claiming that the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday. They will have "proof" that they are the apostles. The Bible says that just before the return of Christ, such miracles will lead "all the world" to follow the beast-power. For virtually everyone in the world, they will be overwhelming deceptions.

The bottom line is that everyone will be deceived who hasn't become so settled into the truth of God's word, the Bible, that they can't be moved. It's only by the Holy Spirit that this can happen.

Paul wrote, Galatians 1:8-9

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. [9] As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

[fccool]

John,

You just proved my point . Your beliefs thus trap using the embedded defence mechanism ... i.e. "Don't believe anyone who says otherwise". YET the only evidence of the supernatural claims you get from reading a written narrative

You would not have problem if God would come down and would dismiss Quran or Talmud... YET, if that being would dismiss E.G. White or Bible, in your mind He would automatically be the Antichrist.

[wayfinder]

Or a part of the Bible.