Remnantitis

[WayneV]

What was God's word that Jesus contradicted?

Then God spoke all these words, saying...Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy (Exodus 20:1, 8-11, NASB, emphasis added).

A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He *said to him, "Do you wish to get well?" The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me." Jesus *said to him, "Get up, pick up your pallet and walk." Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day. So the Jews were saying to the man who was cured, "It is the Sabbath, and it is not permissible for you to carry your pallet." But he answered them, "He who made me well was the one who said to me, 'Pick up your pallet and walk.'" They asked him, "Who is the man who said to you, 'Pick up your pallet and walk'?" But the man who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had slipped away while there was a crowd in that place. Afterward Jesus *found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. For this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:5-18, NASB, emphasis added).

Agape`

[Overaged]

My question if rather hypothetical, but it's no more hypothetical than our belief system. What if there is God, yet the Biblical account of Him is in fact a fabrication for whatever reason.

Well; it is because of such "hypotheses" that God promised in scripture there would "be a remnant."

2Ki 19:30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

2Ki 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.

Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Portrayal of God's remnant as a group of brain-washed people who would not accept "other truth" is a nice smokescreen to hide behind.

[wayfinder]

The religious leaders of the Jews took it upon themselves to define the word "work" in the fourth commandment. The result of this definition was to make the Sabbath a burdon on the people i.e. a Sabbath days journey. God never stipulated how far one could walk on the Sabbath, men did.

Matthew 15:9 NAS

'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "

[Overaged]

John,

You just proved my point . Your beliefs thus trap using the embedded defence mechanism ... i.e. "Don't believe anyone who says otherwise". YET the only evidence of the supernatural claims you get from reading a written narrative

You would not have problem if God would come down and would dismiss Quran or Talmud... YET, if that being would dismiss E.G. White or Bible, in your mind He would automatically be the Antichrist.

If you are open to everything; you will be closed to nothing; including error, and evil.

There is nothing wrong with"an embedded belief system" if it is the truth

[fccool]

Portrayal of God's remnant as a group of brain-washed people who would not accept "other truth" is a nice smokescreen to hide behind.

"I only know that I know nothing"

[fccool]

Quote:

If you are open to everything; you will be closed to nothing; including error, and evil.

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

[Overaged]

While one can add to their understanding of a truth; the truth itself does not change. You are trying to use one part of the Bible to disprove another part of the Bible. There are certain religions who do that. So maybe you are the one with the dread "embedded belief system?"

[WayneV]

The religious leaders of the Jews took it upon themselves to define the word "work" in the fourth commandment. The result of this definition was to make the Sabbath a burdon on the people i.e. a Sabbath days journey. God never stipulated how far one could walk on the Sabbath, men did.

Matthew 15:9 NAS

'BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.' "

Jesus said He was working.

Agape`

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Portrayal of God's remnant as a group of brain-washed people who would not accept "other truth" is a nice smokescreen to hide behind.

"I only know that I know nothing"

From "nothing" to "nothing" equals nothing.

[wayfinder]

Assuming that what you have started out with is the truth. When Jesus said "you must become like children, He was saying that everything you know must be set aside and then learn from Him the truth. The teacher is the important element when we follow Jesus command to become like children. Age does not turn error into truth. Truth can afford to be fair. No truth will ever be proven to be a lie.

Matthew 18:3 NAS

and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

[Overaged]

Assuming that what you have started out with is the truth. When Jesus said "you must become like children, He was saying that everything you know must be set aside and then learn from Him the truth. The teacher is the important element when we follow Jesus command to become like children. Age does not turn error into truth. Truth can afford to be fair. No truth will ever be proven to be a lie.

Matthew 18:3 NAS

and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

Jesus didn't say "everything you know." And becoming "like little children" has absolutely nothing to do with giving up all your beliefs.

[Steve Ervin]

In giving this topic some thought, it seems to me that, had the Jews truly been studying and listening for God through the prophets, their history and the Spirit, they wouldn't have been mistaken about who Jesus was. And,for Adventists who are exhibiting the same behaviors, then "Remantitis", it seems to me, would be a correct definition.

However, if we choose to believe that there is a God and that the Bible is His Word to us and that He never changes and that He sends the Holy Spirit to direct us; will hypotheticals work in such a faith-based model?

I have been participating in a "Ten Days of Preparing For The Latter Rain" study group. The Latter Rain will not happen for those who have not first received the Former Rain of Pentecost.

The Bible and Ellen White strongly indicate that we should be pleading in earnest for the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit". What we, as Adventist Christians, focus on will determine what we miss. If we focus on "The 27 Fundamental Beliefs", not that they're bad, at the expense of pleading for and receiving the Early Rain Baptism of the Spirit; I fear we'll either be found guilty of Remnantitis and/or considered Laodician and be "spit out".

This is way beyond hypothetical, this is serious.

[Overaged]

Well said Steve

[John317]

You would not have problem if God would come down and would dismiss Quran or Talmud... YET, if that being would dismiss E.G. White or Bible, in your mind He would automatically be the Antichrist.

Yes, you are right-- automatically.

However, God wouldn't do what you are suggesting. Yet who will? Satan and his followers.

Should we be getting ready to accept the lies of Satan?

We have to be settled on this: WHOEVER comes with a message that denies the Bible or previous revelations from God-- no matter how good they look or sound-- are antichrist. Even if it is your favorite pastor or if it is someone who looks and talks just like Jesus Christ.

The same principle applies as found in the following:

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-3

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

1 John 3:7-10

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. [8] Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. [9] No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. [10] By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

Assuming that what you have started out with is the truth. When Jesus said "you must become like children, He was saying that everything you know must be set aside and then learn from Him the truth. The teacher is the important element when we follow Jesus command to become like children. Age does not turn error into truth. Truth can afford to be fair. No truth will ever be proven to be a lie.

Matthew 18:3 NAS

and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven

Jesus didn't say "everything you know." And becoming "like little children" has absolutely nothing to do with giving up all your beliefs.

So you are saying that "becoming like little children" does not mean giving up any of your beliefs, but starting anew with everything else. To "become" like children is to be completely teachable, start with a clean slate. Jesus was not saying become immature. That is why they teach reading, writing, and math, starting in first grade, because the little children have knowledge of these.

[John317]

Good thoughts, Steve. And by the way, welcome to the Forum.

[Overaged]

So you are saying that "becoming like little children" does not mean giving up any of your beliefs, but starting anew with everything else. To "become" like children is to be completely teachable, start with a clean slate. Jesus was not saying become immature. That is why they teach reading, writing, and math, starting in first grade, because the little children have knowledge of these.

No. I did not say that it means not giving up "any;" I said it meant not giving up "all." Major difference.

Also; there is no textual evidence to suggest Jesus meant "starting with a clean slate." Once again, it is becoming evident who really is suffering from the dread "embedded belief syndrome."

[wayfinder]

Originally Posted By: wayfinder

So you are saying that "becoming like little children" does not mean giving up any of your beliefs, but starting anew with everything else. To "become" like children is to be completely teachable, start with a clean slate. Jesus was not saying become immature. That is why they teach reading, writing, and math, starting in first grade, because the little children have knowledge of these.

No. I did not say that it means not giving up "any;" I said it meant not giving up "all." Major difference.

Also; there is no textual evidence to suggest Jesus meant "starting with a clean slate." Once again, it is becoming evident who really is suffering from the dread "embedded belief syndrome."

You are correct that Jesus never said we must start with a clean slate, but by implication He said that the established and accepted "religious truth" of the day, was a stumbling block to the eternal truth.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and it fell -and great was its fall."

28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching ;

29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

And as history has shown, it(history) tends to repeat itself.

[Overaged]

You are correct that Jesus never said we must start with a clean slate, but by implication He said that the established and accepted "religious truth" of the day, was a stumbling block to the eternal truth.

Matthew 7:24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house ; and it fell -and great was its fall."

28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching ;

29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.

And as history has shown, it(history) tends to repeat itself.

But God already has a "remnant" that does this. Jesus says "My sheep know Me; and hear my Voice..."

[fccool]

Quote:

However, God wouldn't do what you are suggesting. Yet who will? Satan and his followers.

Ironically was and still is Jewish thinking today :)

[Overaged]

Ironically was and still is Jewish thinking today

Well; what many people keep calling "Jewish" today; actually is not, and never was "Jewish." Another example of "embedded religion."

[Gerr]

If you go back and read the OT, the "any work" prohibition was not as absolute as you would like to make it appear. The priests did their sanctuary work. They circumcised babies even on the Sabbath. They took oxen out of ditches. And Jesus point was, if babies could be circumcized, and if oxen could be taken out of ditches, were they more important than a sick person?

[Gerr]

[quote=WayneV

Jesus said He was working.

Agape`

Are you suggesting Jesus did NOT keep the Sabbath holy?

[WayneV]

Originally Posted By: WayneV

Jesus said He was working.

Agape`

Are you suggesting Jesus did NOT keep the Sabbath holy?

I didn't suggest anything, only quoted Scripture. Why did you conclude that?

Agape`

[WayneV]

If you go back and read the OT, the "any work" prohibition was not as absolute as you would like to make it appear. The priests did their sanctuary work. They circumcised babies even on the Sabbath. They took oxen out of ditches. And Jesus point was, if babies could be circumcized, and if oxen could be taken out of ditches, were they more important than a sick person?

I did not make it appear anything, nor would I like to make it appear anything. I simply quoted Scripture that answered your inquiry. Regardless of the allowances made in the ceremonial portion of the Torah, the fourth of the Ten Commandments states "any work". Also, the Scripture tells us that "God spoke all these words". When Jesus was confronted about working on the Sabbath, He said, "...I myself am working". Thus, Jesus contradicted God's word with His own (see post #390061).

Agape`