Remnantitis

[LynnDel]

Yes, it would be good to define "remnantitis." Those who believe SDAs and SDAs only are the remnant church tend to sit back and rest in the knowledge that they know pretty much everything. In part, remantitis might include the mindset that looks at the EGWhite comments on Bible verses to define the whole of what is meant by those verses, and if she doesn't comment on a verse, that verse "must not be that important." I have, sadly, heard that discussion-ending comment a number of times in Sabbath School classes. It keeps us from growing in the knowledge of the truth. I am not saying that EGW wasn't used by God, but I think she would be horrified at how her writings are used by many today.

LynnDel

[LynnDel]

Excellent thoughts, fccool.

LD

[doug yowell]

Quote:

It is not wrong to be convicted by the Holy Spirit - through God's Word, that there is a remnant of Bible prophecy and history.

There's nothing wrong with striving to be that remnant by following a certain practices.

There's nothing problematic with the statement:

"We are a church that strives to be the remnant of God in the last days"

But the statement is rather:

"We ARE the remnant of God. No question about it! Here's the proof from the Bible"

If we are remnant, then it would mean a lot more than going around giving prophecy seminars about how we are remnant and people should join us because Christ is coming soon . It's rather self-serving, don't you think?

If WANT TO BE a remnant, then we should abide in love and commandments with attitude of humility that underline both love and commandments. Unfortunately, I don't see such attitude underlining our church... neither do my unsaved friends do. Then... GOD DETERMINES who is remnant and who is not. Not our self-inclusion in such group.

That's why Christ said that you will know them by their love. It's hard to know anything outside of love. Love is the only thing that's certain. Everything else is rather fake.

I KNOW when people truly love me and when they are fake. I KNOW when people are hard on me when they love me, or when they hard on me because they want me to be a carbon copy of themselves.

Remnant loves... not merely observes the Sabbath. Sabbath without love is just a clock ticking.

So, if you want one sign of remnanatis, that would be proud self-inclusion of oneself in the group of "remnant people" without following the attitude of love and service that underline such group.

Actually, I believe that this is something the Ellen White preached continually.And this is one of the reasons why many don't like her.They are not all Israel who are of Israel.I'm not sure you'll get much disagreement from anyone here on your definition.

[Woody]

Excellent Thoughts LynnDel

[Overaged]

If WANT TO BE a remnant, then we should abide in love and commandments with attitude of humility that underline both love and commandments. Unfortunately, I don't see such attitude underlining our church... neither do my unsaved friends do. Then... GOD DETERMINES who is remnant and who is not. Not our self-inclusion in such group.

That's why Christ said that you will know them by their love. It's hard to know anything outside of love. Love is the only thing that's certain. Everything else is rather fake.

[Overaged]

Actually, I believe that this is something the Ellen White preached continually.And this is one of the reasons why many don't like her.They are not all Israel who are of Israel.I'm not sure you'll get much disagreement from anyone here on your definition.

A remnant cannot be understood apart from a clear depiction of the body/people to which the remnant, as referred to in the Bible, belongs. Thus, this OP must begin to define "remnantitis" with a study of the special role and function of Israel as shown in the OT; in order to accurately reflect to the public, just what this mysterious "remnantitis" might actually be.

Anti-Adventists around the world hate this teaching with a vehemence we usually only see society using on terrorists and other heinous criminals. You will continue to see constantly changing variations of their hatred, within their own little "remnants" that they are building everywhere. They have gotten it to the point where (according to them) use of the word "remnant" is like drinking poison; or like some kind of filthy swearing.

The role of Israel; and the remnant thereof is not determined by anti-Adventist cults; or even by Adventists. It is governed by the very religious nature, and the theological meaning of the word "Israel" in the Old Testament of the Bible.

On the one hand; "Israel" stands for a people, for a nation, and yet, on the other hand, it also stands for the people of Yahweh, as a religious congregation. From the very outset, the name Israel in the OT presents a religious explanation, given by God to the patriarch Jacob after he had persistently entreated the Lord for His blessing: “Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed” (Gen. 32:28; cf. 35:9, 10; Hosea 12:3, 4). Thus the name Israel is revealed as being of divine origin. It symbolizes Jacob’s new spiritual relation to Yahweh and represents Jacob as reconciled to God through His forgiving grace. Having been forgiven, Jacob’s name “was changed from one that was a reminder of his sin, to one that commemorated his victory” (PP 198). In short, from the very beginning the name Israel symbolizes a personal relation of reconciliation with God.

The OT maintains throughout this sacred origin of the name as representing its higher calling. Through the prophet Hosea, God pointed to Jacob’s wrestling with Yahweh as an example to be imitated by the apostate tribes of Israel, who were trusting more in the war horses of Assyria and Egypt: “So you, by the help of your God, return, hold fast to love and justice, and wait continually for your God” (Hosea 12:6; see verses 3–6; 14:1–3). In other words, all Israelites must seek basically the same religious encounter with God and its transforming experience as Jacob had, in order to be the light of the world and to receive the covenant blessings.

Israel was chosen and redeemed by God’s grace at the Exodus in order to be a holy people, that is, set apart to keep God’s covenant and to be priests or mediators between God and the Gentile nations. Israel was saved by grace from a deadly enemy, but at the same time saved for God’s glory and for the salvation of the other nations. The book of Deuteronomy teaches that the purpose of Israel’s election was a deeply religious mission. They had to respond to God’s redemptive act as “the sons of the Lord your God” (Deut. 14:1) by loving their covenant God with total commitment of heart (Deut. 6:5), by obeying Him willingly (verses 6–9, 18), and by worshiping Him exclusively (verses 13–15).

Seventh-day Adventists who see themselves as a part of "the remnant" see themselves in relation to continuing this special covenant of grace with God, and of sharing this grace with the world; inviting EVERYONE to be a part of it. God’s plan to bless the nations through Israel will be fulfilled, but in God’s own innovative way: by means of Israel’s faithful remnant. A divinely chosen remnant will inherit the covenant promises and responsibilities to enlighten the world of Christ and His righteousness.

The OT uses the word “remnant” (š?’ar, š?’erît) to describe three types of people: (1) a historical remnant, survivors of a catastrophe; (2) a faithful remnant that maintains an active covenant relationship with God and carries the divine election promises; (3) an eschatological remnant consisting of those future faithful believers in the Messiah, who persevere till the end of the church era and ultimately emerge victorious. The remnant motif in Holy Scripture reaches from Genesis to Revelation and is found in every OT book. Its terminology is used more than 540 times in the OT alone, proving that the gospel is in all the Bible. the OT always portrays the future remnant of Israel as a faithful religious community that worships God with a new heart created by the Spirit of God, on the basis of the new covenant. The prophets Isaiah, Micah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel center the eschatological remnant of Israel and the nations around the Messiah, the Servant of Yahweh par excellence (Isa. 42:1–7; 49:6). Clearly, people who try to deny the Biblical concept of a Remanant are being un-Biblical.

The coming of Christ Jesus to Israel was the ultimate test for the Jewish people as a theocracy or God-ruled nation. As Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth was the “stumbling stone,” the “rock that will make them fall” (Rom. 9:32, 33; 1 Peter 2:4–8).

Israel’s special relationship with Yahweh was determined by its response to the advent of Christ and His atoning self-sacrifice. For Jesus, the true descendants of Abraham were defined, not by the literal blood of Abraham, but by the faith of Abraham. Sonship and fatherhood are primarily determined not by a physical but by a spiritual relationship (Matt. 12:48–50). Christ claimed that all Israel should come to Him to receive the rest of God or they would stand judged: “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matt. 11:28; see Isa. 45:22); and “he who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters” (Matt. 12:30).

Christ was sent by God first of all to gather “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” to Himself as the promised Messiah, just as the prophets had predicted (Matt. 10:5, 6; 15:24; see Jer. 23:3–5; Eze. 34:15, 16, 23, 24). But Christ also proclaimed that His mission—to suffer death under God’s will and judgment—was intended to benefit all peoples of the earth: “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself” (John 12:32). So in the end; as in when Jesus comes; there will be a remnant out of "all men" who will be ready, in their hearts to meet King Jesus. Even some who now decry those who believe in "the remnant" of Bible prophecy and history, will be ready because "what's impossible with men is possible with God." Referring to Isaiah’s prophecy of a future gathering of Gentiles to the temple of God, Christ declared, “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd” (John 10:16; see Isa. 56:8), "chosen" from all people on the Earth.

This claim called for a decision of faith in Him as the Messiah of Israel. To fulfill His universal mission, Jesus called from Israel His 12 apostles, who in their chosen number clearly represent the 12 tribes of Israel. Beginning with the 12 disciples, whom He called to Himself and commissioned as apostles (Mark 3:14, 15), Christ formed a new Israel, the Messianic remnant people of Israel, and called them “my church [ekklesia]” (Matt. 16:18). To this new organism, with its own structure and authority, He gave “the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (verse 19; see 18:17).

Christ’s final decision regarding the Jewish nation came at the end of His ministry, when the Jewish leaders had determined to reject His claim of being Israel’s Messiah. Christ’s words reveal that Israel’s guilt before God had reached its completion (Matt. 23:32). His verdict was: “The kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruits of it” (Matt. 21:43). This solemn decision implies that Israel would no longer be the people ruled by God and would be replaced by a people that would accept the Messiah and His message of the kingdom of God.

Christ did not promise the kingdom of God—the theocracy—to another “generation” of Jews in the distant future, as dispensational writers favor, but to Christ-believing people from all races and nations, “from east and west” (Matt. 8:11, 12). In short, His church (“my church,” Matt. 16:18) would replace the Christ-rejecting nation.

Jesus Himself identified the “people” whom God had chosen. To His disciples He said, “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom” (Luke 12:32; cf. 22:29). That Christ unmistakably identified His disciples as the true Israel is strengthened by the fact that the Israel of God was called the flock or sheep of God by Israel’s prophets (Isa. 40:11; Jer. 31:10; Eze. 34:12–14). By calling the disciples to form the little flock who would receive the kingdom, Christ formed the nucleus of the new Israel (Luke 12:32). Christ created His church, not besides Israel, but as the faithful remnant of Israel that inherits the covenant promises and responsibilities. Christ’s church is not separated from the Israel of God, only from the Christ-rejecting people who attack His remnant. Used in it's etymological context; "remnant" is not such a bad word after all; and we should never be ashamed of ascribing to this Biblical teaching. The Adventist doctrine of "the remnant" is "the big picture."

[Woody]

I told this story before but it bears repeating.

Last year I went to an Adventist Church and across the street was a Sunday Keeping Church called the Remnant Church.

Folks .... we are not alone in this condition of Remnantitis.

It afflicts many churches.

[Overaged]

Yes, it would be good to define "remnantitis." Those who believe SDAs and SDAs only are the remnant church tend to sit back and rest in the knowledge that they know pretty much everything. In part, remantitis might include the mindset that looks at the EGWhite comments on Bible verses to define the whole of what is meant by those verses, and if she doesn't comment on a verse, that verse "must not be that important." I have, sadly, heard that discussion-ending comment a number of times in Sabbath School classes. It keeps us from growing in the knowledge of the truth. I am not saying that EGW wasn't used by God, but I think she would be horrified at how her writings are used by many today.

LynnDel

Excuse me; I am off now for a couple of hours of time-keeping, and clock-ticking, and maybe even a bit of Ellen White reading on top of the Bible at Church and Sabbath school. You can put the cuffs on me later when you determine that I did all this without "love." as "fccool" has referenced,

[Stan]

interesting,.. if you google Remnantitis we come up first.

[Overaged]

Well; we have a Catholic Church right across the street from an Adventist Church over here, and we all get along just fine.

[Overaged]

interesting,.. if you google Remnantitis we come up first.

LOL

[Woody]

-itis at the end of a word is referring to inflammation.

In the case of Remnant ... it is a group of people who are inflated with themselves.

[LynnDel]

Inflate and Inflame are two different words. Inflamation usually has to do with infection.

Just a thought...

(Maybe I should leave such pronouncements to the medicos amongst us! I reserve the right to be mistaken.)

[Woody]

And they definately have an infection and resulting inflammation of their brain.

[Tom Wetmore]

You nailed it, Woody!

I have got to remember that definition... and fccool's "Sabbath without love is just a clock ticking." Those two thoughts go together very well.

The antithesis of love is being self-absorbed, or as you suggest, having self-inflammation. And as I suggested earlier, Isaiah's message that Jesus proclaimed and lived was serving others, even or especially on the Sabbath. That is why I say that the commandment to love one another directly does honor the Sabbath.

[Woody]

Excellent Tom. You've put it all together. Apparently there ain't no inflammation in your brain.

[LynnDel]

This looks to me to be an example of a DISCUSSION, where, for the most part, participants have built upon what they see as the positives in others' input rather than looking for comments at which they can take shots.

[Gerr]

Yes, it would be good to define "remnantitis." Those who believe SDAs and SDAs only are the remnant church tend to sit back and rest in the knowledge that they know pretty much everything. In part, remantitis might include the mindset that looks at the EGWhite comments on Bible verses to define the whole of what is meant by those verses, and if she doesn't comment on a verse, that verse "must not be that important." I have, sadly, heard that discussion-ending comment a number of times in Sabbath School classes. It keeps us from growing in the knowledge of the truth. I am not saying that EGW wasn't used by God, but I think she would be horrified at how her writings are used by many today.

LynnDel

Most SDAs I know recognize that:

1) God has a visible remnant, organization if you please, that teaches certain neglected truths for this time.

2)But just as Paul recognized that "not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel," not all who belong to the visible remnant really belong to the remnant.

3) That there is an invisible remnant to which all born again believers belong to whether they be Mormons, Baptist, Catholics, or even Adventists and Muslims.

But let the self-flagellation continue. Maybe it may serve as a cathartic to some.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Miracles are NEVER to be accepted as the evidence for truth. The devil can perform miracles too. God does not contradict His own word.

oh, i dont know... a changed life is certainly a miracle...im not speaking of a person who is bare-knuckling it, but a truly changed person that shows in their life...

Now, that's one miracle I could/would probably consider. But miracles like turning water into blood, or some other physical phenomenon, I would probably shrug my shoulders and say, "So what?"

[teresaq]

agreed. :)

[fccool]

Quote:

Yes, it would be good to define "remnantitis." Those who believe SDAs and SDAs only are the remnant church tend to sit back and rest in the knowledge that they know pretty much everything. In part, remantitis might include the mindset that looks at the EGWhite comments on Bible verses to define the whole of what is meant by those verses, and if she doesn't comment on a verse, that verse "must not be that important." I have, sadly, heard that discussion-ending comment a number of times in Sabbath School classes. It keeps us from growing in the knowledge of the truth. I am not saying that EGW wasn't used by God, but I think she would be horrified at how her writings are used by many today.

LynnDel

I think another condition that begets such attitude is actually looking at the Bible as a collection of verses, rather than a complete narrative that point to a person of God.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Quote:

And what do you mean "fixated?" Is it wrong to have our eyes FIXED on Jesus? "Fixated" on what?

Well; I agree, I don't want to argue either; but to be frank; all I was asking for is what you meant by what you said. There should be no problem to explain that further; by answering my questions about what you mean when you say it's wrong to be "fixated" and to not see "the big picture?"

I do know some of what you seem to be saying here; except I would add that those who are so concerned about "error," and only talk about that are usually too engrossed in it to know anything about the remnant. So it does not follow that they would have "remnantitis." It is not wrong to be convicted by the Holy Spirit - through God's Word, that there is a remnant of Bible prophecy and history.

The Adventist doctrine of the remnant, correctly understood IS THE BIG PICTURE.

i repeat, if you havent come across these people, im not going to argue back and forth as to whether they exist or not.

[Gerr]

I think another condition that begets such attitude is actually looking at the Bible as a collection of verses, rather than a complete narrative that point to a person of God.

How many do you know who looks at the Bible as a collection of verses?

[Woody]

Quote:

Yes, it would be good to define "remnantitis." Those who believe SDAs and SDAs only are the remnant church tend to sit back and rest in the knowledge that they know pretty much everything. In part, remantitis might include the mindset that looks at the EGWhite comments on Bible verses to define the whole of what is meant by those verses, and if she doesn't comment on a verse, that verse "must not be that important." I have, sadly, heard that discussion-ending comment a number of times in Sabbath School classes. It keeps us from growing in the knowledge of the truth. I am not saying that EGW wasn't used by God, but I think she would be horrified at how her writings are used by many today.

LynnDel

I think another condition that begets such attitude is actually looking at the Bible as a collection of verses, rather than a complete narrative that point to a person of God.

Excellent point. It is a huge and very common problem among Christianity. And especially among a group in the Adventist faith.

[Overaged]

This looks to me to be an example of a DISCUSSION, where, for the most part, participants have built upon what they see as the positives in others' input rather than looking for comments at which they can take shots.

Yes; I agree with this thought. It is good to see...