Remnantitis

[Gerr]

Well, that means you are not afflicted with "remnantitis" after all, PK. Or are you?

[antcreations]

@fccool: "The Sabbath without love is just a clock ticking." Awesome quote! I will post this as my Facebook status for the day! Thanks!

The word remnantitis is from the awesome book "Future Church - Building Christian Community" authored by Adventist pastor, David Cox.

Highly recommended book that asks good questions we Adventists should be asking ourselves. Your local ABC should have a copy of it.

Below are two excellent.

David on church planting:

http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=337

re:Frame/Life Development - Reaching the Post Moderns

http://www.adventistpictures.org.uk/gallery/2001/ld13nov2001/index.php

[Tom Wetmore]

Did you know that being among a remnant is not necessarily a good thing in Scripture?

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "remnant" are used throughout Scripture, fairly often I might add. And more often than not they describe the last of the wicked or the last of those finally destroyed, not some special protected class saved in the end.

Something to think about...

[Overaged]

The second link you gave had this enclosed quote in their "Get Connected" part of the new way they are trying to evangelise:

Quote:

As a broad outline, Life Development will initially consist of four main sections. These have been given provisional names which indicate their function. The first phase is concerned with building friendships and is entitled "Get Connected". Pastor Dalbert Elias, who helped to oversee the Net '98 programme, said that this first phase would be crucial. "We, and our members, need to re-connect with the people in our neighbourhoods. Not necessarily because we want them to join our Church, but because we care about them as people. Only when we have learned how our neighbours feel and think can we really understand how we can bring Jesus to them."

This is an excellent approach, and one that we find all over in the Bible. I realize that some do not do this; but conversely, it is the way I was taught, 20 years ago; and currently, I am fortunate enough to belong to a church where this kind of thing has long been the practice. It is interesting to me to note too that many churches who have a strong concept of the remnant doctrine, in fact are the ones who are often seen practicing this early Biblical model; while many professing "liberals" tend to run a very critical ship which works against the "Get Connected" concept too.

Not being able to connect to the community is a problem not relegated to a particular group. If it was; it would be easy to address.

[Overaged]

Did you know that being among a remnant is not necessarily a good thing in Scripture?

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "remnant" are used throughout Scripture, fairly often I might add. And more often than not they describe the last of the wicked or the last of those finally destroyed, not some special protected class saved in the end.

Something to think about...

There are actually 91 verses in the Bible translating the word to "remnant" and out of these, atleast 61 refer to the remnant in a positive light, as God's people.

[Tom Wetmore]

That only accounts for the English usage of the word "remnant". There are multiple Hebrew and Greek words that are translated as "remnant" and those same Hebrew and Greek words are also translated as other English words that mean similar things like "rest" "residue", "other", "others", etc. You get a different and expanded perspective when looking at those Hebrew and Greek words.

[BobRyan]

Here is that "good" Bible based concept of remnant of the church, those who remain among God's faithful people - the concept you see as the focus of the inspired writing in both the NT and in the visions God gave to Ellen White.

KJV – Rev 12

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

These saints are given focus here as well -

Rev 14 –

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

I do believe that there is a movement away from Remnantitis. A more Grace centered interpretation is being seen. Praise God. Elietism is not a good way to spread the Gospel. It only alienates.

[BobRyan]

I see more and more people moving toward an acceptance of Rev 12:17 - particularly the on-fire ones that come in through evangelism.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Praise God our evangelistic efforts are being more and more grace centered and bringing in more on fire people for God.

[John317]

Did you know that being among a remnant is not necessarily a good thing in Scripture?

The Greek and Hebrew words translated as "remnant" are used throughout Scripture, fairly often I might add. And more often than not they describe the last of the wicked or the last of those finally destroyed, not some special protected class saved in the end.

Something to think about...

Yes, the word means the last part of something, whether good or evil. But in Rev. 12: 17, which is the focus of SDAs, it obviously does not mean an evil people.

So the question is how does Rev. 12: 17 use the word?

It's quite true that the idea of the "remnant" is found all through the Old Testament, and it is often talking about the last numbers of a particular group of wicked people.

But I think it's important for us to understand the significance of "remnant" in Rev. 12: 17, because that is the focus of the term in relation to the end-times and the SDA church.

The following verses help us define and understand the term as it is used in Rev. 12: 17:

Exodus 26:12

And the remnant that remaineth [the part that remains] of the curtains of the tent, the half curtain that remaineth, shall hang over the backside of the tabernacle.

Leviticus 2:3

And the remnant of the meat offerings shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the Lord made by fire.

Leviticus 5:13

And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

Leviticus 14:18

And the remnant of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall pour upon the head of him that is to be cleansed: and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the Lord.

Isaiah 1:9

Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

Micah 2:12

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

Zeph. 3:13

The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

Zech. 8:6

Thus says the Lord of hosts: If it is marvelous in the sight of the remnant of this people in those days, should it also be marvelous in my sight, declares the Lord of hosts?

Zech. 8:12

For there shall be a sowing of peace. The vine shall give its fruit, and the ground shall give its produce, and the heavens shall give their dew. And I will cause the remnant of this people to possess all these things.

Romans 9:27

Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Romans 11:5

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

Rev. 11:13

And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant [rest] were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev. 12:17

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Here "the remnant" of the woman's seed refers to the last part of God's people living in the last part of this earth's history. They will keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus, which is the Spirit of prophecy (Rev. 19: 10).

We get another glimpse of the "remnant" in Rev. 14: 12, where they are described after the mark of the beast is given and just before Christ returns:

Rev. 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Questions:

It says that Satan is enranged with the woman and comes down to make war with the remnant of her offspring. Who are they? What work has God assigned to them?

Why would it be in Satan's interest to get this "remnant" to forget or be confused about what it means to be "the remnant"?

[Woody]

Yes, I think it's sad that some have the wrong idea of 'remnant' and are driving many from Christ. But as I have stated ... I believe our church is beginning to preach the message in a more non-elietist attitude. Praise God.

[Overaged]

Being a Christian is "elitism" sometimes. It's hard to avoid. What some say about this in order to object to certain beliefs just isn't true half the time. While I agree that there are examples where the grace part has been turned to disgrace; I don't agree that it is something that used to happen, and is happening less now.

In my personal experience of 20 years ago; it was all about grace; even though it was the remnant teaching, and the Sabbath that convinced me to join the church. Some people just have such a great way of explaining it all and living it out with Jesus as the center. I still find that today. The grace part has always been in this teaching; it sometimes depends upon what peole want to see there too. I'm glad we got you around to keep the focus on the right part, and I mean that!

[Overaged]

That only accounts for the English usage of the word "remnant". There are multiple Hebrew and Greek words that are translated as "remnant" and those same Hebrew and Greek words are also translated as other English words that mean similar things like "rest" "residue", "other", "others", etc. You get a different and expanded perspective when looking at those Hebrew and Greek words.

OK; what exactly are you saying these Greek and Hebrew words are; and can you give a few example texts to show us what you are saying? Especially the "more often than not" part...

[Tom Wetmore]

John explained it fairly well...

[Tom Wetmore]

I think it is the elitist idea that those saved in the end are like the marines, "the few, the proud, the brave"...

The idea of a "remnant" evokes a significant limit on the number that will remain and be saved in the end. It has the same effect of taking the 144,000 as a literal number. If that is the actual number, odds are strongly against any of us being saved.

I would rather focus on the vast multitude beyond numbering that is described in Revelation as being saved. That seems to describe a huge number that make it. The odds seem more in our favor. I think God intends to and will save far more than we would if we were doing the saving.

[Woody]

Woody likes

[phkrause]

I think it is the elitist idea that those saved in the end are like the marines, "the few, the proud, the brave"...

The idea of a "remnant" evokes a significant limit on the number that will remain and be saved in the end. It has the same effect of taking the 144,000 as a literal number. If that is the actual number, odds are strongly against any of us being saved.

I would rather focus on the vast multitude beyond numbering that is described in Revelation as being saved. That seems to describe a huge number that make it. The odds seem more in our favor. I think God intends to and will save far more than we would if we were doing the saving.

Not sure what all are concerned about? From what I've always understood the Remnant are those that are still alive when Jesus comes!

[Overaged]

quote=Tom Wetmore]I think it is the elitist idea that those saved in the end are like the marines, "the few, the proud, the brave"...

The idea of a "remnant" evokes a significant limit on the number that will remain and be saved in the end. It has the same effect of taking the 144,000 as a literal number. If that is the actual number, odds are strongly against any of us being saved.

I would rather focus on the vast multitude beyond numbering that is described in Revelation as being saved. That seems to describe a huge number that make it. The odds seem more in our favor. I think God intends to and will save far more than we would if we were doing the saving. /quote]

Not sure what all are concerned about? From what I've always understood the Remnant are those that are still alive when Jesus comes!

Well said. "The Remnant" actually does not evoke "limited numbers" if one is open to understanding it as the Bible depicts it. To focus "more" on the Bible's use of it in Rev than the many other places in the Bible where it is mentioned, is to only focus on a portion of the story.

One might say that Jesus Himself "evokes limited numbers" when He says that "few are chosen" but it needs to be put in perspective. The remnant doctrine has never been officially taught to say that only a small number of people, or only Adventists will be saved. Those who make it out to be an "elitist" doctrine give the most legalistic view of it.

[phkrause]

Well said. "The Remnant" actually does not evoke "limited numbers" if one is open to understanding it as the Bible depicts it. To focus "more" on the Bible's use of it in Rev than the many other places in the Bible where it is mentioned, is to only focus on a portion of the story.

One might say that Jesus Himself "evokes limited numbers" when He says that "few are chosen" but it needs to be put in perspective. The remnant doctrine has never been officially taught to say that only a small number of people, or only Adventists will be saved. Those who make it out to be an "elitist" doctrine give the most legalistic view of it.

Like I mentioned in a previous post, at this point in earth's history I do believe we are as far as churches are concerned the last church on the scene, I don't know of any others that have organized since the SDA church. But as far as a remnant that are left at the end of time, I believe there'll be people from all different denominations.

[Overaged]

General tag on.......

In everyday language 'remnant' does mean a small amount. When we are talking outside of the church membership we should always use terminology that is understood by the general population, not SDA 'speak'. I have been in the church forever and in many different churches and schools. Remnant has always insinuated a small number even among SDA's. We ought not to 'revise' church history. By the tone of many conversations on these forums when the term is used, the insinuation is still there. Lets have some honesty, folks!! TW's point, I believe, is to illustrate that thought and that our focus should be somewhere else.

It's Bible-speak, not "SDA speak." Regarding this subject, TW and a few others seem to have trouble with that. Attempts to make the official teaching as somehow glued to numbers, are the real revisioning of history here. The official teaching has never been dependant upon or most focused on how many; only on how. That's where the grace comes in. To deny that is to revise it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Interesting that the "Remnant" Bible was produced specifically for Adventists. I wonder who came up with that name??

[John317]

It's hard to tell who came up with the name "Remnant Study Bible," but we can be sure that Doug Batchelor approved of it. The Bible committee doubtless liked the name. I think it's a good name myself.

There are study Bibles published by most of the major denominations and they have titles that their members easily recognize. No reason that SDAs shouldn't do the same. I'm glad the SDAs have study Bibles which give its views and the Bible doctrines in the notes and margins, etc. They're great.

The best study Bible, though, I think, is The ESV Study Bible, General Editor WAyne Grudum, which generally agrees with the notes in the SDA study Bibles.

Some of my study Bibles published by non-SDAs even speak of the cleansing of the sanctuary, and concede that there's a cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary as well. You could actually teach most SDA doctrines from the notes in some of those study Bibles.

[Overaged]

I agree with you 110% about the Study Bible comments you made. There are actually a number of "Adventist derived" study Bibles out today, and most of them seem pretty good, although sometimes oriented towards a particular line of thought. The concept of a study Bible is actually a good one, infact I am known for making my own. I am about to start on a new one, as I like to re-vamp it every 5 or so years to reflect ongoing increase in knowledge, etc. It can mean all kinds of notes and references, handwritten in argins, to adding extra pages with either handwritten, or typed notes. It's a great way to study and to organize and keep track of things.

It is interesting that you mention this about the ESV. I can name one very anti-Adventist group, very busy opposing us, and they seem to think that version is a good one for refuting our beliefs.

I also would add re "remnant" that it is an unfortunate situation which is being developed by some in this topic. This word is kind of like the word "discipleship" - it has grown to have so many meanings in people's minds, that, in effect, it is meaningless; unless a correct understanding is sought. The correct understanding is the officially taught doctrine/belief. It is not all of the many meanings floating around out there. (most of which are used to denegrate this great doctrinal pillar. To many opposing use of this word "remnant, it can be seen clearly that they don't like it; to such it has become a cath-word that can mean anything fromJim Jones and complete domination, to a variety of "spiritual coverups" to hide dead institutionalism, or stone-cold formalism.

For me, just as "discipleship" has always meant me "just wanting to help other people in any ways I can no matter who they are, or what they believe." And in the teachings I experienced re "the remnant;" all I can think of is a mission to help other people find their destiny in God. Not joining our Church, necessarily, but in truly sharing Jesus, regardless of people's race and creed.

I would continue and tell you about the Adventist Church near here, which is right beside a Catholic Church; or I could tell you about an Adventist medical professional who has a VERY Catholic staff member, this Adventist man literally helps anyone who genuinely needs it. And he is very glad to be a part of "the remnant church of Bible prophecy." It's not a dirty word to say this. The Bible doctrine of "the remnant" is a wonderful way to look at things. But I won't tell you all about how God's Remnant is reaching people for Jesus. Some of you will just call me "legalistic" "exclusive" or "too conservative" or even worse, a history revisionist!

To better understand "the remnant" it is helpful to also review the following three beliefs, as OFFICIALLY taught by the Adventist Church:

12. The Church:

The church is the community of believers who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. In continuity with the people of God in Old Testament times, we are called out from the world; and we join together for worship, for fellowship, for instruction in the Word, for the celebration of the Lord's Supper, for service to all mankind, and for the worldwide proclamation of the gospel. The church derives its authority from Christ, who is the incarnate Word, and from the Scriptures, which are the written Word. The church is God's family; adopted by Him as children, its members live on the basis of the new covenant. The church is the body of Christ, a community of faith of which Christ Himself is the Head. The church is the bride for whom Christ died that He might sanctify and cleanse her. At His return in triumph, He will present her to Himself a glorious church, the faithful of all the ages, the purchase of His blood, not having spot or wrinkle, but holy and without blemish. (Gen. 12:3; Acts 7:38; Eph. 4:11-15; 3:8-11; Matt. 28:19, 20; 16:13-20; 18:18; Eph. 2:19-22; 1:22, 23; 5:23-27; Col. 1:17, 18.)

13. The Remnant and Its Mission:

The universal church is composed of all who truly believe in Christ, but in the last days, a time of widespread apostasy, a remnant has been called out to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This remnant announces the arrival of the judgment hour, proclaims salvation through Christ, and heralds the approach of His second advent. This proclamation is symbolized by the three angels of Revelation 14; it coincides with the work of judgment in heaven and results in a work of repentance and reform on earth. Every believer is called to have a personal part in this worldwide witness. (Rev. 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jude 3, 14; 1 Peter 1:16-19; 2 Peter 3:10-14; Rev. 21:1-14.)

14. Unity in the Body of Christ:The church is one body with many members, called from every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. In Christ we are a new creation; distinctions of race, culture, learning, and nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another; we are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation. Through the revelation of Jesus Christ in the Scriptures we share the same faith and hope, and reach out in one witness to all. This unity has its source in the oneness of the triune God, who has adopted us as His children. (Rom. 12:4, 5; 1 Cor. 12:12-14; Matt. 28:19, 20; Ps. 133:1; 2 Cor. 5:16, 17; Acts 17:26, 27; Gal. 3:27, 29; Col. 3:10-15; Eph. 4:14-16; 4:1-6; John 17:20-23.)

[phkrause]

Interesting that the "Remnant" Bible was produced specifically for Adventists. I wonder who came up with that name??

Most likely Dwight Hall. He owns Remnant Press. But I'm just guessing. He also probably talked to 3ABN about it, because I believe he designed for them? But not sure, I did hear something to that effect.