Dr. Shane Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 The wrath of God is God giving them up. That is certainly part of it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Dr. Shane Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Persoanlly I would like to see Jesus wearing black leather, riding a harley, with his sword strapped to his back. As long as I am covered by His blood, I don't care what He is riding. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Amelia Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Sonny, Answer a question. Are you here on a solo quest to try and prove "we" are all deluded about God, Jesus and Christianity? Amelia Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Sonny Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Do you think that was love when God killed Saul? Yes. God is love. I grasp that. We know God is love, but was this love for God to kill Saul? Quote
Sonny Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny The wrath of God is God giving them up. That is certainly part of it. No, it's the whole of it. God doesn't change....He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Quote
Sonny Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Do you think that was love when God killed Saul? Yes. But (I love coordinating conjunctions) God didn't kill Saul. Yes, He says He did, but actually Saul committed suicide. "Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6)." But, again, God claims He killed Saul: "...therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14). You see Saul was in the midst of battle and losing. He didn't want to be captured so Saul ended his life. Previous to this battle Saul had rejected God. When God is rejected He moves on. He doesn't force His love & protection on those who persist on living without Him. Since God is sovereign, since God allowed Lucifer to develop his love of self, God assumes the blame. This principle if throughout the Bible. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen due to human free will, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment. Quote
Sonny Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Here are other verses where God assumes the blame: But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him (1 Samuel 16:14, KJV; emphasis supplied). God will send them [the wicked] strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11). I the Lord have [margin: 'misled'] that prophet (Ezekiel 14:9). I [God] create evil (Isaiah 45:7) But I [God] will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go (Exodus 4:21). There are many more statements.... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2011 Moderators Posted March 13, 2011 Writing as Moderator: There have been other discussions of the same topic you are talking about now, and it is always an interesting one; but it really is off topic here. I don't mind people getting off topic for a brief time but you need to wrap it up in the next few posts or move it to a different discussion devoted to the question of whether God directly destroys or not. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Sonny Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Okay, I'm through.....I've said my what I've wanted to say.... Quote
karl Posted March 13, 2011 Posted March 13, 2011 Remember the flood? Did God love all of those people? Huh? If He did, then I sure don't want Him to love me in the same way! I want Him to love me and provide a way of escape for me just like He did for the antedeluvians. And He has done just that. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2011 Moderators Posted March 13, 2011 Remember the flood? Did God love all of those people? Huh? If He did, then I sure don't want Him to love me in the same way! Yes, God does love all people, including those who died in the Flood. But they made their decision to hang onto sin, and our loving God must destroy sin. He does what He can to persuade people to give up their sins, but if we persist in keeping them, we will also die with our sins, just as the people died in the flood. And God will be crying, "How can I give you up?" But he will give them up, because He honors people's freedom to choose and He takes our choices seriously. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
doug yowell Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Remember the flood? Did God love all of those people? Huh? If He did, then I sure don't want Him to love me in the same way! Yes, God does love all people, including those who died in the Flood. But they made their decision to hang onto sin, and our loving God must destroy sin. He does what He can to persuade people to give up their sins, but if we persist in keeping them, we will also die with our sins, just as the people died in the flood. And God will be crying, "How can I give you up?" But he will give them up, because He honors people's freedom to choose and He takes our choices seriously. Did Travis love ol yeller? Quote
Dr. Rich Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 Matthew 23:37: "Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling." Matthew 21:19: And seeing a lone fig tree by the road, He came to it, and found nothing on it except leaves only; and He said to it, "No longer shall there ever be any fruit from you." Sure, Jesus loves those who respect and love Him by showing their love for Him in obeying all of the commandments and His testimony. But don't get on the side of those who refuse to obey by outwordly sinning, for just as what Jesus did to the Jews/Israel, He will do to you too. Rev. 22:12: "Behold, I am coming quickly and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Quote
Dr. Rich Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 karl wrote: "I want Him to love me and provide a way of escape for me just like He did for the antedeluvians. And He has done just that." Hey karl, not sure what you mean by God providing a way of escape for the antedeluvians? Please explain you're post. Show us where this happened. Quote
Sonny Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 But don't get on the side of those who refuse to obey by outwordly sinning, for just as what Jesus did to the Jews/Israel, He will do to you too. Well, John asked me to wrap it up, but with statements like the above am I not to reply? John? Quote
skyblue888 Posted March 14, 2011 Posted March 14, 2011 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped. Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God. And the winepress are trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs. (Revelation 14:14-20) "And there was war in Heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in Heaven, and the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." To millions, these words have pictured an intense physical struggle between the forces loyal to Heaven and the rebels. It has been seen as a conflict involving the use of physical power versus physical power. Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space. But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle. It is a view consequent with the practice of seeing God's behavior as being identical to man's. There was war in Heaven, it is true, but not war as men fight. Satan was cast out, but it was God's way of doing it, not man's. "God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy and love; and the presentation of these principles are the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power." Desire of Ages, p.759. In that struggle then, God did not use force. This weapon is never found in His Kingdom but only in that of Satan's. Therefore, it was by another way that Satan was cast out of Heaven, never to return. God fought with none other than the weapons consistent with His Kingdom. It is difficult for sinful man to understand the nature of those weapons for they are so foreign to his experience and nature. The struggle in Heaven was a very real one nonetheless. It was war, a total effort on Satan's part to change the entire structure of Heaven's order and organization. In order to succeed, he needed to convert the angels' allegiance away from God to himself. At that time the only sword Satan could use was that of deception, against which God used only the weapon of truth. The battle raged on over a considerable time span until the point was reached where the devil had penetrated as far as he could. Each angel had made his choice with sufficient numbers standing for the truth to enable God to maintain His position as Protector of the heavenly hosts. With God's continued presence assured, there was no hope of the proposed new order being established. The old and proven order would remain. But Satan's deformation had brought him into such disharmony with those principles that he found it impossible to remain where they continued to operate. To him, Heaven had become a place that was foreign, unacceptable, and unendurable, and he could not leave it quickly enough. It was the truth of God which drove him out, not the use of any kind of physical force. The same reason for Satan's leaving Heaven is the reason why the wicked would never be happy if they were to go there. They would not be able to tolerate the place and would want to leave it as soon as possible. They would be driven out by their sheer unfitness to remain: "Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to Heaven, and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there, every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor to God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sits upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for Heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of Heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion has unfitted them for Heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from Heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." The Great Controversy, 542,543. Confirmation of this is already available. The worldly and ungodly today find that the society of true Christians engaged in devoted worship of God is intolerable to them and they desire only to leave such society. They are happier elsewhere. Satan's rejection of the ways and principles of God in exchange for other pursuits so worked changes in him that he could no longer suffer its holy atmosphere. Being there was such torture to his deranged nature that he had to go and go he did. As Pharaoh's heart was hardened by his continual resistance of God's efforts to save him, so Lucifer's whole being was warped by his fighting off God's loving efforts to draw him and his followers back from the abyss into which their steps were surely taking them. This is how Satan was driven from Heaven, not by God directly driving him out, but by His efforts to save him. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8,9. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Sonny Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 To anyone concerned, Did you know that one of CA advertisements is for www.gaydar.net? It a dating service for gay men. Should a Christian website like CA be allowing this? Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted March 15, 2011 Moderators Posted March 15, 2011 To anyone concerned, Did you know that one of CA advertisements is for www.gaydar.net? It a dating service for gay men. Should a Christian website like CA be allowing this? That sometimes happens by accident, Sonny, and Stan always fixes it the moment it comes up. Drop him a PM and it will be fixed. The ads come up in response to the content of the threads, so it's unsurprising that it happened given the title and content of this thread. Quote Truth is important
Dr. Shane Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space. But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle... How about this one? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Members phkrause Posted March 15, 2011 Members Posted March 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Great artists have portrayed Christ at the head of hordes of shining angels standing with an unsheathed sword before which Lucifer is plunging downwards into the darkness of empty space. But this is a superficial and inaccurate view of the nature of the struggle... How about this one? Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Dr. Shane Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 Persoanlly I would like to see Jesus wearing black leather, riding a harley, with his sword strapped to his back. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity
Moderators Bravus Posted March 15, 2011 Moderators Posted March 15, 2011 The scale is all wrong, though: it's not an evenly matched battle. Jesus is God and God is infinite: Satan is now a little local menace confined to our tiny planet. Quote Truth is important
Amelia Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 That's close Shane. But I was thinking more of Lorenzo Lamas in Renegade LOL. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
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