Gay Billboard

[Kevin H]

Exactly, we are not far apart on this topic, and I am sorry that I said things leading to us quarling especially when we were both arguing about different parts of the post. It just hurts because I have seen people learn things and simply throw her out, or people who refuse to look at the evidence because their mind is made up about what she should be doing. and that comment is what bothered me. We need to encourage people not to give her up too quickly even if she has some of what appears to have some evidence that makes us uncomfortable.

[John317]

Maybe you want to pretend that our scholars don't discuss this topic, if so pretend that I'm not being a tattle tale on them.

I don't ever want to "pretend" anything. In fact, I am very interested in everything being taught and said not only in the SDA church but in all Christianity and in all the world religions and in philosophy. I read and study both sides of the issue of "H." I have never been one who only reads things that agree with my viewpoint. I would find that dull and boring, for one thing; but for another, that is a good way to be lied to without knowing it.

[phkrause]

This is a very good argument. I honestly think I would buy it, if it wasn't for the fact that we believe the Holy Spirit helps us understand and interpret the Bible. I know a lot of Christians from other denominations that believe very different things about the method of salvation, for instance (one doctrine that it's very important to understand correctly). Even with their assumptions and prejudices, these are people who are earnestly studying the Bible daily while asking for the guidance of the holy spirit. I really believe that they want nothing more than to be Christlike people, learn what is right, and spread the good news; but yet they still come to all sorts of different conclusions.

I've heard answers to these questions ranging from "God sometimes keeps people in the dark temporarily for their own protection, but they'll come into the church when the time is right" to "they don't really have an open mind about these issues." I can't accept either of those answers. What are your thoughts?

I agree with your thinking in that 2nd paragraph. But those are opinions of humans, we are all flored(sp) in one way or another. I believe the Lord works with each one of us at where we are. He knows our hearts, he sees us for who we really are. If we are earnestly studying the Bible he will know that no matter what anyone says. That's why there will be many saved from all denominations.

[LifeHiscost]

I agree with your thinking in that 2nd paragraph. But those are opinions of humans, we are all flored(sp) in one way or another. I believe the Lord works with each one of us at where we are. He knows our hearts, he sees us for who we really are. If we are earnestly studying the Bible he will know that no matter what anyone says. That's why there will be many saved from all denominations.

God blesses!

[Dr. Shane]

God does not force the will. There is a very unassuming nature of God. We find Jesus asking a lot of questions to make people think rather than a lot of demands of what people should think. When Jesus asked "Who do people say that I am and who do you say that I am" and Peter answered "You are the Christ..." Jesus congratulated him because it was NOT flesh and blood that told him that-- in other words it was not a person, even Jesus himself as a person, who grabbed Peter's collar telling him just what to believe. But through the disciples listening to Jesus, discussing the evidence and thought that the Holy Spirit lead them.

Very good way of putting that into words.

[doug yowell]

I find much more evidence in the Bible that it is NOT the word of God than evidence that it is. I challenge anyone to find a single passage in the entire Bible that couldn't have been written by uninspired people living in the first century.

This is a very strange challenge. Since you don't believe that inspiration exists why ask such a question? Any attempt at an answer will be referred back to the lack of proof for the existence of inspiration. Heads you win...tails we lose.Also your implication seems to reassert your premise that the entire Bible was written in the first century. Since all Bible believing historians hold that the OT portion of the Bible was finished around 450b.c. it could legitimately claimed by critics that perhaps some of the prophetic portions were written around the first century, but the whole...??? What possible credible evidence could be produced that would substantiate that claim?

[Sonny]

When they see it as God judging wicked cities, like Sodom and Gomorrah, it becomes consistent with His character of love.

[Sonny]

Again, the problem with Sodom and Gomorrah wasn't homosexuality. This sin, among many other sins, were the fruit of ungodliness. Ungodliness is the rejection of God. Let's look at Romans chapter one again:

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

So Sodom and Gomorrah's problem began when they knew of God, through creation, but yet rejected Him.

The result? Sin, which included homosexuality. What did God do?

verse 24-God gave them up in their sinful desires

verse 26-God gave them up to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Yes, God takes the responsibility for Sodom and Gomorrah demise. That's why He said to Abraham, "Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?

Yes, He said He was about to destroy these cities. How? Clearly God abandoned those cities because they rejected both their need of Him and His love. They said "no" - so God had to leave. Otherwise He would have been forcing Himself on them.

So God takes the blame for what happened as if He did it Himself. Hence there's a principle seen throughout the Bible and it is this:

"God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent."

[Sonny]

him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out

Here's another version (NLT):

"Those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them."

When anyone persistently rejects God - they refuse to come to Him in faith. Since God can't force Himself on anyone (because agape can't do that) God Has to abandon them. Does He hate doing it? Yes:

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

[Dr. Shane]

That's not love. Love is loving your enemy!

[Sonny]

I look to the Bible to define love - not Hollywood. That perhaps is our problem. Some people look to society around them to define love instead of looking to the holy Word of God.

[Sonny]

Punishing the wicked for their deeds is not forcing them to do anything. It is simply holding them accountable for the decisions they made of their own free will.

"The wages of sin is death". Sin pays in death....If God brings death then God = sin. Sin kills, not God. That's because God is love, but again that love can't force men & women to accept Him. When we have God in our midst we have peace of mind. We have protection, and we experience His love in our lives. Outside God is death.

If God physically rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah then God burned up innocent children, who by no fault of their own, belonged to the wicked parents of that city. They (the children) didn't choose to reject God.

So if God actually brought fire out of heaven and killed these children God is a murderer. But, if the parents of those children rejected God and in turn God had to abandoned them, then the parents are the murderers. They brought death upon themselves & their children and God is free of murder.

[Sonny]

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest." [Ellen White]

[Dr. Shane]

I have never stated we are not to love our enemies. Nor have I stated that God does not love His enemies. What I have stated is when God eliminates sin, that itself is a loving act.

God never says, "I love ya, but if you don't love me back I'll burn you!" To suggest such a thing is a strawman. Where in the Bible does it say that? In which post have I ever claimed it said that?

God allows people to make up their mind of their own free will. The account given in Genesis 18 makes it clear that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham asked God, "Wilt Thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" God did not try to force the will of the wicked in those cities. They made up their own minds of their own free will. God did destroy them as a consequence of their choices.

"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (2 Ptr 2:4-6)

Instead of using fire and brimstone, God used the children of Israel to execute His judgment on the sinful inhabitants of Palestine. This is not inconsistent with His character of love.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of My mouth... As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Rev. 3:17, 16, 19)

[Dr. Shane]

"God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest." [Ellen White]

Take that in context. It is like saying guns don't kill people, people kill people. Well, guns are the tool people use. So... guns do kill people, don't they?

It is not God's desire to destroy anyone. God desires everyone to repent. Christ died so that no man will have to perish. So saying that God doesn't destroy anyone is like saying guns don't kill. It is a play on words. However, if we want to be literal instead of literary, we must admit that God will destroy the wicked.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28)

[Dr. Shane]

If God physically rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah then God burned up innocent children, who by no fault of their own, belonged to the wicked parents of that city. They (the children) didn't choose to reject God.

I would caution you against judging God. One day you God will demand you to give an account for such actions. Are you prepared to answer to Him? God really got after Job for that very thing. Note Job's response in chapter 40.

Job 38:

1. Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2. Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3. Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8. Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9. When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10. And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11. And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12. Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13. That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14. It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15. And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16. Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17. Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18. Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

19. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,

20. That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?

21. Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?

22. Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

23. Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?

24. By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?

25. Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;

26. To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;

27. To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?

28. Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?

29. Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?

30. The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.

31. Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?

32. Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

33. Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?

34. Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?

35. Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?

36. Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?

37. Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,

38. When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?

39. Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,

40. When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?

41. Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.

Chapter 39:

1. Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?

2. Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?

3. They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.

4. Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.

5. Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?

6. Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.

7. He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.

8. The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.

9. Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

10. Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

11. Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

12. Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?

13. Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?

14. Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,

15. And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.

16. She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear;

17. Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.

18. What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.

19. Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?

20. Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.

21. He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.

22. He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.

23. The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.

24. He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.

25. He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.

26. Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?

27. Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?

28. She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.

29. From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.

30. Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.

Chapter 40:

1. Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said,

2. Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

3. Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

4. Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

5. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further.

6. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

7. Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

8. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9. Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10. Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

[doug yowell]

If God physically rained down fire on Sodom and Gomorrah then God burned up innocent children, who by no fault of their own, belonged to the wicked parents of that city. They (the children) didn't choose to reject God.

So if they didn't reject God why did God remove His protection from them? "Far be it from You to do such a thing as this,to slay the righteous with the wicked,so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from you! Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?"

[Sonny]

They made up their own minds of their own free will. God did destroy them as a consequence of their choices.

Then that's not free will!

I'm God...I want you to love me. It's your decision, but if you don't I'll destroy you. Just FYI.

[Sonny]

I would caution you against judging God.

I would caution you in driving folks from God through a broken theology that makes God look like a devil.

[Sonny]

So if they [the children?] didn't reject God why did God remove His protection from them?

The parents made that decision for them....

If a parent takes his/her kid for a car ride without using the seat belts and that kid is killed in accident, whose fault is it?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: doug yowell

So if they [the children?] didn't reject God why did God remove His protection from them?

The parents made that decision for them....

If a parent takes his/her kid for a car ride without using the seat belts and that kid is killed in accident, whose fault is it?

This is a false comparison. You would think god would have better aim when he rained down fire. "Oops I only meant to kill the guilty. I will tell them that my heart aches for innocent and that will make up for my incompetence."

What this reveals is that women and children really had no value in the Old Testament. We can see the same thing with the story of Job. When his children are killed it suddenly becomes alright because Job gets a new family.

The focus is self centered on the male writers of the Bible.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

They made up their own minds of their own free will. God did destroy them as a consequence of their choices.

Then that's not free will!

That is free will. The whole concept of free will is that the person is able to use their own mind and make their own decisions. If I speed and the policeman gives me a ticket I can't claim that the policeman made me speed just so he could give me a ticket. I made my own decision to speed and the policeman gave me a ticket as a consequence of the decision I made using my own free will.

The wicked rejects God's love. So God destroys him or her. The wicked cannot than blame God for their rejecting Him. The wicked operates on their own free will. God does not force them to do anything.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I would caution you against judging God.

I would caution you in driving folks from God through a broken theology that makes God look like a devil.

Judging God is a very serious matter. Judging me by falsely accusing me of teaching broken theology isn't that big of a deal. But judging God is. Lucifer judged God and that is what got him kicked out of heaven. It is no light matter to judge God.

[Dr. Shane]

What this reveals is that women and children really had no value in the Old Testament.

While we know that culturally, women and children were not valued like men were, I can't agree that is what the story is teaching. Remember in Numbers where God told them to kill all except the virgins. Now why would that be? They certainly didn't need women for wives. Childhood diseases killed off more baby boys than girls so ancient societies always had more women than men in them. I can only conclude that God saw that some of the young girls could be reached by His grace while the rest of the population was a lost cause.

[LifeHiscost]

"...wherefore' date=' I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus [is'] anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus [is] Lord, except in the Holy Spirit."1 Corinthians 12:3 YLT brackets theirs LHC

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:3 NKJV

"Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."Matthew 16:17 NKJV

Or any other century, as far as that's concerned?

God blesses!