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[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Quite the speculation there.

Maybe, because the text doesn't say how they died. You are speculating too.

Quote:

Please explain why Satan hasn't died.

God hasn't abandoned him. He will be abandoned after the resurrection of the damned.

From my limited study of the Bible I don't believe in a God who can simultaneously love the sinner more than Himself and yet be destructive to human life.

When I look to the cross I see a God who loves me more than Himself. He loved me when I was His enemy. He took the curse and was willing to die eternally so that I might have heaven in His place.

How can such a God threaten me with destruction when He went to such great lengths to save me and show His love to me? Not to me only, but to all men.

Yes, some will reject God's love. They will reject their need of God and thus they will remain under the curse of the law, which is God abandonment.

Anyway, the reason I brought this up was in relationship to Romans chapter 1. When people reject God eventually, after they have completely hardened their hearts, God hands them over to reap the results.

How refreshing to hear this. What love! "Behold what manner of love!"

sky

[LifeHiscost]

Would you believe that this is inspired prophecy? After all, it says it was written by Shadrach and it predicts a future event with far more precision and clarity than anything in the Bible. If you don't accept it, why not? The default, neutral position is skepticism. What else can it be?

When one starts from the position that "I know nothing", God finds easy access to the mind. However when one starts with the premise that "I know everything I need to know, especially enough to disallow any to rise above what I already know", since God gives everyone freedom of thought, even in the presence of His greatest enemy, it does become difficult to accept anything He desires for our betterment. That is why I found this to make it so much easier, when accepted.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. "

Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

However, many on earth choose this pathway.

"You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’"Revelation 3:17 NLT

When God knows we all start from this position on the way to the Kingdom of Heaven.

"And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."

God blesses!

[Dr. Shane]

Your claim about the Dead Sea Scrolls is often repeated from the pulpit, but it's also a lie.

It appears you are operating on some misinformation. I have done an in-depth study on the Dead Sea Scrolls. One has to understand the term "dramatic differences" to a linguist has a different meaning than it does to a common person.

For a common person a dramatic difference would be if the modern Bible says Noah was on the ark for a year and an ancient manuscript said ninety days. That would completely change a significant and meaningful part of the story.

For a linguist, the fact that the Sabbath Commandment in the Dead Sea Scrolls includes the creation account and in modern Bible translations it doesn't is a "dramatic difference." Yet it doesn't change the message. It has no impact on doctrine. The common man would not consider that a dramatic difference although to the academic mind it is an incredible difference.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Would you believe that this is inspired prophecy? After all, it says it was written by Shadrach and it predicts a future event with far more precision and clarity than anything in the Bible. If you don't accept it, why not? The default, neutral position is skepticism. What else can it be?

When one starts from the position that "I know nothing", God finds easy access to the mind. However when one starts with the premise that "I know everything I need to know, especially enough to disallow any to rise above what I already know", since God gives everyone freedom of thought, even in the presence of His greatest enemy, it does become difficult to accept anything He desires for our betterment. That is why I found this to make it so much easier, when accepted.

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. "

Hebrews 11:6 NKJV

However, many on earth choose this pathway.

"You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’"Revelation 3:17 NLT

When God knows we all start from this position on the way to the Kingdom of Heaven.

"And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked."

God blesses!

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not 'rich,' and I don't have everything I want. I'm working towards it, though. Rich being a metaphor for knowledge, of course. I've never been one for money.

So you're saying we should discard everything our own minds tell us about the world and believe what other people tell us about the word of God regardless of how much sense it makes? If the Bible had said that Jonah swallowed the whale, would you believe it?

[Dr. Shane]

Shane: The island in the pacific was an obvious hypothetical scenario, but thanks for missing the point (again).

The point is that virtually every culture and civilization that has ever lived has believed in some sort of super natural god. No such hypothetical island exists.

Could it be that every culture of every civilization that has ever existed was wrong until the "age of enlightenment" came along a few hundred years ago?

[Dr. Shane]

How can such a God threaten me with destruction when He went to such great lengths to save me and show His love to me? Not to me only, but to all men.

I don't see any place in the Bible where God threatens anyone with destruction. He warns us of what our wrong choices will bring.

I think of sin as a sinking ocean liner. God has provided life boats for everyone. Yet some people are so caught up in eating the fine food, dancing to the music of the band and playing shuffleboard that they are just not interested in a life boat. Who wants to get into a small life boat and be cramped up for hours while a rescue ship comes? God pleads with everyone to abandon ship but some simply ignore Him and their destruction follows.

The people that were wiped out by the Israelites had been weighed in the balance and found wanting. Just like those in Sodom and Gomorrah, judgment was visited on them. God's wrath is fruit of His love. God's love can only allow sin to go so far.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Shane: The island in the pacific was an obvious hypothetical scenario, but thanks for missing the point (again).

The point is that virtually every culture and civilization that has ever lived has believed in some sort of super natural god. No such hypothetical island exists.

Could it be that every culture of every civilization that has ever existed was wrong until the "age of enlightenment" came along a few hundred years ago?

Sort of, yes. The "virtually every culture believed in the supernatural" argument is pretty flimsy. Not only is it an appeal to the majority (the fact that most people believe something shouldn't be the best argument you can come up with for its veracity), but it's unrealistic to expect early humans to invent the scientific method along with language right there during the origins of civilization. Given what we know about human psychology, it's hardly surprising at all that people invented fanciful stories to explain the (then) unexplainable phenomena around them.

[Dr. Shane]

In my studies of ancient cultures, I have not concluded they were any less intelligent than modern man. I am convinced that the printing press is man's greatest advancement as it allowed one man's knowledge not only to be widely circulated but to be passed on to future generations to build upon.

[Igakusei]

In my studies of ancient cultures, I have not concluded they were any less intelligent than modern man. I am convinced that the printing press is man's greatest advancement as it allowed one man's knowledge not only to be widely circulated but to be passed on to future generations to build upon.

What does intelligence have to do with the price of tea in China?

You're still dodging the argument; the point is, how would a person who is completely and utterly impartial to Christianity or any other religion go about assessing the accuracy of their sacred texts? Why do you think that taking a fantasy book at face value is not a neutral position?

[Sonny]

God's wrath is fruit of His love. God's love can only allow sin to go so far.

As to Sodom and Gomorrah, let's look at bit closer.

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God poured fire upon the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

The implication is that God doesn't destroy, rather He gave them up - He removes Himself - He abandons those who reject Him. Why? Agape can't force or coerce. Hence, being righteous, He must move on.

What happens when God removes Himself?

I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us? [Deuteronomy 31:17]

[Sonny]

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not 'rich,' and I don't have everything I want.

The Bible is not talking about riches in Rev. It's talking about the attitude, the cockiness, the arrogance and the highmindedness that accompanies those who "are in need of nothing."

John uses this symbolism to represent the attitude of those who do not need Christ. They don't need Christ for they are moral in their own eyes.....

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not 'rich,' and I don't have everything I want.

The Bible is not talking about riches in Rev. It's talking about the attitude, the cockiness, the arrogance and the highmindedness that accompanies those who "are in need of nothing."

John uses this symbolism to represent the attitude of those who do not need Christ. They don't need Christ for they are moral in their own eyes.....

You don't get much more arrogant than Christian theology. The idea that we were specially created in God's image to occupy a position above the angels, and that the creator of the entire universe wants to spend individual time with each of us? I can't say I've ever heard anything more self-important and arrogant than that.

You try and balance it with "oh, but we're fallen sinners in these corrupt mortal bodies..." but you know where you think you're going, and the important place you think the universe has in store for you. Yeah, that's arrogance. The "cockiness" and "high mindedness" necessary to believe that you are destined for an eternal reward of that magnitude while almost everyone outside your sect (and indeed also most of the people in it) are going to be destroyed forever for their alternate points of view.

[Sonny]

You don't get much more arrogant than Christian theology. The idea that we were specially created in God's image to occupy a position above the angels, and that the creator of the entire universe wants to spend individual time with each of us?

I can't help it if there are self-righteous, egocentric believers (babes in Christ) within the churches of Christendom. Instead of using them as excuse to reject Christ, try looking in mirror. Then you'll see your need....

[Igakusei]

I didn't use "false" Christians as an excuse to reject Christ. I've always recognized that as a stupid reason to do so.

I rejected Christianity because while it is a decent way to live and certainly better than some of the alternatives, it does not have a clear understanding of reality. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence, and as far as I am concerned it hasn't met its burden of proof.

Even the beneficial aspects of it don't work if you don't believe it, and I certainly cannot and will not raise my children to believe something that I myself don't.

[doug yowell]

Doug: you also have gross misconceptions about what scholars believe about the Bible. I'd suggest reading some books that don't agree with your viewpoint in order to flesh your knowledge base out a little bit. I mean, at least familiarize yourself with the other guys are saying.

Why not enlighten me then,Iga? If the evidence was so overwhelming then the overwhelming number of other guys would be in overwhelming concurrence. The natural conclusion (if your evidence is indeed proven factual)would seem to strongly imply that it was the Jews that foisted this giant misconception on a easily duped world of non-Jews. Who do you think made up these unbelievable stories? Since there are no textual or historical evidences to indicate that this whole Bible thing was a creation of a few sinister geniuses during a brief selected time period,why should I believe the analysis of a few skeptics who weren't even there to witness it?

[doug yowell]

I rejected Christianity because while it is a decent way to live and certainly better than some of the alternatives, it does not have a clear understanding of reality.

How does something that has a better way of living have a muddled understanding of reality? The way one lives is an understanding of reality.Think of all the practical benefits that have resulted from people's believing what they considered the Bible to be accurately teaching about reality.

[Igakusei]

I didn't say it was better than all of the alternatives, which is what you seem to have inferred.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Doug: you also have gross misconceptions about what scholars believe about the Bible. I'd suggest reading some books that don't agree with your viewpoint in order to flesh your knowledge base out a little bit. I mean, at least familiarize yourself with the other guys are saying.

Why not enlighten me then,Iga? If the evidence was so overwhelming then the overwhelming number of other guys would be in overwhelming concurrence. The natural conclusion (if your evidence is indeed proven factual)would seem to strongly imply that it was the Jews that foisted this giant misconception on a easily duped world of non-Jews. Who do you think made up these unbelievable stories? Since there are no textual or historical evidences to indicate that this whole Bible thing was a creation of a few sinister geniuses during a brief selected time period,why should I believe the analysis of a few skeptics who weren't even there to witness it?

Much of the Old Testament is just a collection of Jewish myth and folklore, and a significant part of it was influenced by or straight-out copied from neighboring religions. The creation story and the flood, for example, come from other traditions that pre-date Judaism. It wasn't the work of a few sinister geniuses with the intent to deceive or subvert, it was just the natural growth and evolution of religion.

[John317]

...I rejected Christianity because while it is a decent way to live and certainly better than some of the alternatives, it does not have a clear understanding of reality.

What is the "reality" that you claim Christianity does not understand?

Does Christianity have to have a clear understanding or explaination of everything in the universe for it to be true in terms of the existence and activity of God?

It sounds like you are conceding that Chrisianity produces some very positive and real results. That makes me think it must contain some real truth.

When you refer to "Christianity," you make no distinction between the various kinds of Christianity, and of course there are many. Would it be more accurate to say you've rejected the Bible as a guide to truth?

Is there any "guide" that you have decided is more reliable to "ultimate reality"?

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence, and as far as I am concerned it hasn't met its burden of proof.

But you are yourself making some very fantastic claims here, so please offer your fantastic evidence for those claims.

Your fantastic claim is that Bible is all just a natural result of the evolution of religion. What is your proof of this?

Are you referring to any particular fantastic claim, such as God's creation of the world or perhaps the death and resurrection of Christ?

What kind of proof or evidence of any of these things would you consider worthy of your trust?

[Dr. Shane]

how would a person who is completely and utterly impartial to Christianity or any other religion go about assessing the accuracy of their sacred texts?

Well, I know how I did it. I grew up in a back-slidden Adventist home. The church folks were nice. I never had anything against them but they didn't fill the emptiness I had inside. When I was 13 I found something that did. Alcohol. By the time I was 15 I was living on the streets, sleeping under bridges and eating out of dumpsters. I had run away from home. When my mother finally did catch up with me, she had me committed to a mental health ward for adolescents. After three and a half months, the hospital diagnosed me as an alcoholic and suggested a 12-step recovery group.

I found a spirituality in the 12-step recovery group that I had not known before. They told me I needed a power greater than myself to restore me to sanity. BUT they said I could choose my own higher power. This started a spiritual quest for me. I seriously doubted that Adventism was the true religion and wasn't even sure about Christianity. I had an interest in eastern religion or even Native American religion. It wasn't for five years into my recovery before I even attended an Adventist church and it was another two years before I joined. I was very skeptical.

I evaluated each religion on the available evidence that supports them. As I stated earlier in this thread, there is no sure thing. Atheism isn't a sure thing. So no matter what a person chooses to believe or not believe, there is no way a person can be absolutely sure they are embracing the truth. So I had to take a leap of faith at what appeared to have the most support. I leaped to Christianity and from there I went to Adventism.

[John317]

...Much of the Old Testament is just a collection of Jewish myth and folklore, and a significant part of it was influenced by or straight-out copied from neighboring religions. The creation story and the flood, for example, come from other traditions that pre-date Judaism. It wasn't the work of a few sinister geniuses with the intent to deceive or subvert, it was just the natural growth and evolution of religion.

Show your best evidence for this-- that what we have in the Bible is the "natural growth and evolution of religion".

Please explain the books of Daniel and Isaiah in this way.

As I'm sure you can see, if the Flood was true, we would expect there to be many other traditions of a Flood. And that is exactly what we have.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

In my studies of ancient cultures, I have not concluded they were any less intelligent than modern man.

What does intelligence have to do with the price of tea in China?

Your suggestion is that early man wasn't smart enough to figure out there was no God. As we look at the great achievements of the Egyptians, Persians, Chinese, Aztecs, Incas and Mayans, I can't buy into the idea that they were not smart enough to become atheists.

The most logical explanation for the widespread belief in a deity found geographically throughout the world and historically throughout time is that there actually is a God. While time and tales have changed the understanding of God from culture to culture and generation to generation, the belief in divinity is best explained by the idea that such a deity actually exists.

[Dr. Shane]

The implication is that God doesn't destroy, rather He gave them up - He removes Himself - He abandons those who reject Him.

I don't think playing games with words helps advance the gospel or justify the character of God. I see no conflict between God ordering ancient Israel to wipe out pagan cities and his character of love. I don't have to play with words to make those compatible.

[Dr. Rich]

Here is the thing Iga, do you believe in the words of Jesus Christ given to us by His eyewitnesses or not? If not, then one can't even debate with you. If yes, then Jesus verified that the Law and the Prophets (what He called scripture) were indeed correct, but not necessary interpertated correctly.

From the Law and the Prophets we can get a view into some of the history of the Kingdom of Heaven but not the history of all of the other civilizations that may or may not have existed before The Lord God formed Adam out of the earth and placed him into a special protected garden away from the the rest of the wicked world filled with lies given to them by their only known god; Satan and his demons. It is no wonder that our Creator had to have two witnesses who were humans, to test first to see if they were fit to witness to the rest of the world about the True Creator.

[Amelia]

Igakusei, in order to have a viable dialog, it would be nice if you started answering some of the questions being posed to you. All this verbal dancing isn't getting you anywhere. So take heed of an old axiom and put up or shut up.

Amelia