Gay Billboard

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I used to believe this too. It made a lot of sense to me until I started making friends with gay people.

I too have made friends with gay people ... well sort of.

I have a "friend" on here by the name of John317. And so I kinda 'understand' gay people.

There is something with which we must be aware. John may be tempted. John is no longer gay. Anymore than I am any longer a murderer.

"Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them."1 John 3:15 NLT

"Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!"

2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

And feelings, on this earth, do not determine who the person is.

God blesses!

[Woody]

Personally ... I'm a work in process. I don't belive that just because I am still "greedy" that I will be lost. The only way we are righteous is if we accept the covering of Christ's Robe to cover our "greediness".

[fccool]

Your description of homosexuality as repulsive is completely subjective.

Your other two, that it is evolutionarily degenerative and psychologically deviant, are not supported by evidence. There are literally thousands of recorded instances of routine homosexuality within the animal kingdom. It's as natural as heterosexuality, it just doesn't make babies.

Now, of course, we can say that it's subjective. Everything is it terms of beauty. All I'm saying that for vast majority of males on this planet... VAST majority... the thought of kissing another male is repulsive. If it was "normal", something tells me I'd have no problem snogging a guy I know is attractive.

My point about evolutionary degeneration is precisely that. The offspring that does not reproduce... will die off.

If homosexuality is not psychologically deviant, then what makes pedophilia or necrophilia to be so?

[Woody]

Quote:

There is something with which we must be aware. John may be tempted. John is no longer gay. Anymore than I am any longer a murderer.

Apparently you've not read the entire thread here. For John himself says he is a gay person.

[John317]

I think we can argue homosexuality on purely practical and biological terms.

Andre Gide, the French writer, and winner of the Nobel Prize for literature, wrote a book, Corydon, in which he tried to make the case for homosexuality from a purely biological viewpoint. He argued that it is natural since it occurs in nature, among the animals. And if I were an evolutionist, I would agree with him. But I'm not. I accept the Bible [as Gide himself once did, before he met Oscar Wilde], and therefore I must reject his arguments.

[Woody]

Quote:

There is something with which we must be aware. John may be tempted. John is no longer gay. Anymore than I am any longer a murderer.

I was not aware of this part of your past LHC. Is there a story behind this?

[John317]

I will admit that I came on too strong in that post, and I should probably apologize for it. My blood was pumping a little fast after reading some of the earlier posts in the thread.

That's OK, Igakusei. I understand and I don't take it personally.

[John317]

There is something with which we must be aware. John may be tempted. John is no longer gay. Anymore than I am any longer a murderer.

...And feelings, on this earth, do not determine who the person is.

I agree with you in sense in which you say this.

It really depends on how "gay" or "homosexual" is defined. If you define it as what someone does, then clearly I am not gay now. But I use it in a broader sense to include much more than behavior, to include one's feelings about one's body and about how one relates to people. The things I'm referring to are not sinful but are simply matters of personality and one's self-identity. It's kind of a complex thing, really. I believe, though, that God is changing even these things in me.

As far as temptations to practice homosexuality are concerned, I don't think about it any more. I'm now too busy thinking about the Bible and Jesus and writing here on the Forum and on other forums to think those kinds of thoughts. Also I don't put myself in places where I know I would experience temtations. For instance, I stopped going to bars and being around others who are practicing, and I no longer watch films about gays or look at pictures of naked guys. I know I can't do those things and still expect God to keep me from temptation. That would be playing games with God.

I'm always mindful of the fact that the reason I am not practicing is God's Spirit and that on my own, apart from God, I would return to it. So I don't trust myself but always only trust Christ.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Your description of homosexuality as repulsive is completely subjective.

Your other two, that it is evolutionarily degenerative and psychologically deviant, are not supported by evidence. There are literally thousands of recorded instances of routine homosexuality within the animal kingdom. It's as natural as heterosexuality, it just doesn't make babies.

Now, of course, we can say that it's subjective. Everything is it terms of beauty. All I'm saying that for vast majority of males on this planet... VAST majority... the thought of kissing another male is repulsive. If it was "normal", something tells me I'd have no problem snogging a guy I know is attractive.

My point about evolutionary degeneration is precisely that. The offspring that does not reproduce... will die off.

If homosexuality is not psychologically deviant, then what makes pedophilia or necrophilia to be so?

If it was so evolutionarily degenerative, why is it so prolific in nature? I think that most evolutionary biologists would disagree with you, and there are a lot of hypotheses that may explain why it's still around.

psychological deviancy strikes me as a somewhat subjective term in of itself. Most people reject pedophilia not on account of its deviancy, but because of the psychological damage it does to children.

I would argue that necrophilia, while considered deviant behavior in the developed world was considered quite normal and in fact moral practice among the Jungpo of Burma as they would ritually marry and have sex with the corpses of unmarried women. As such I don't think normalcy is good grounds for deciding the morality of a specific behavior.

[Sonny]

If it was so evolutionarily degenerative, why is it so prolific in nature?

Because the world - the human race- the animal kingdom, etc is fallen. It is perverted. The principle of every living thing is preoccupied with the principle of self, where God's kingdom is based on agape - a love that is not self-seeking.

[Igakusei]

As understood by Adventists, God's love for us is extremely self-seeking. An Omnipotent God spends his free time creating mortal creatures who then spend a significant portion of eternity chanting "Holy Holy Holy?" Give me a break.

[Dr. Shane]

As understood by Adventists, Lucifer's charge against God is that He was self-serving. God proved that charge wrong at the cross. That is what the whole deal is about. In the Adventist view, every sin, every pain, every defect, every heartache is seen in light of the conflict between Satan and God.

[Sonny]

As understood by Adventists, God's love for us is extremely self-seeking. An Omnipotent God spends his free time creating mortal creatures who then spend a significant portion of eternity chanting "Holy Holy Holy?" Give me a break.

He is Holy because He lives not for Himself - He lives to serve. Lucifer, on the other hand, has developed a love that is completely opposite of God's love. Lucifer developed a love that is bent to self.

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. At the fall Adam & Eve were infected with this love. Hence, by nature we are egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way”.

There is no self-love in God’s love, and it is this love produced in the lives of Christians through the indwelling Spirit that is the most powerful witness of the transforming power of the gospel. God is the source of our agape - He is the source of our lives (even though fallen) and because of His love we adore and worship Him.

[Sonny]

God's love for us is extremely self-seeking.

I think this is blasphemy to the highest degree. It's terrible how sinners place sin - the love of self - on a sinless God.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

There is something with which we must be aware. John may be tempted. John is no longer gay. Anymore than I am any longer a murderer.

I was not aware of this part of your past LHC. Is there a story behind this?

I'm grateful, not a long story. I at one time, hated an innocent person enough so that I wished them to be dead. As circumstances occurred I was put in a position that if God had let things progress without intervening, my lack of effort to save, would have been the unseen reason for the death of the individual involved. I'm sure only the prayers of others unknown, kept the unthinkable from happening.

Praise God for prayers answered on my behalf before I had sense enough to know I even needed the prayers of others.

God blesses!

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

As understood by Adventists, God's love for us is extremely self-seeking. An Omnipotent God spends his free time creating mortal creatures who then spend a significant portion of eternity chanting "Holy Holy Holy?" Give me a break.

He is Holy because He lives not for Himself - He lives to serve. Lucifer, on the other hand, has developed a love that is completely opposite of God's love. Lucifer developed a love that is bent to self.

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. At the fall Adam & Eve were infected with this love. Hence, by nature we are egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way”.

There is no self-love in God’s love, and it is this love produced in the lives of Christians through the indwelling Spirit that is the most powerful witness of the transforming power of the gospel. God is the source of our agape - He is the source of our lives (even though fallen) and because of His love we adore and worship Him.

Well said Sonny.

You are new to this site?

sky

*we all know how in this world they say that before you can love anyone you must first love yourself. Okay there is no selfishness with God but does that mean that God does not love Himself? Does He love everybody else but Himself? Does He abbhor Himself or hate Himself or something? :)

[Gerr]

Gerry, I'm going to assume that your 500,000 figure comes from estimated AIDS deaths. To assert that everyone who contracts and dies of AIDS does so as a direct result of homosexuality is to betray a gross ignorance of the subject.

I don't know what happened to my previous response, so I'm responding to this post again.

Did I make any such assertion? I realize this might be an emotionally charged discussion for some, but I suggest that you read more carefully.

Quote:

Again, nobody is getting hurt.

You are perfectly free to believe and assert it all you want, but the over half a million dead are facts that contradict your belief. The reason those figures are only estimates is because the diagnosis of AIDS/HIV is cloaked in secrecy. Every highly communicable disease is reportable, but not so with AIDS/HIV. Gays have managed to block it.

[Gerr]

I think we will agree to disagree on this point.

The framework of my morality is built upon alleviation of human suffering. I cannot justify that homosexuality causes human suffering, therefore I cannot justify the horribly immoral acts routinely committed against it.

If the framework of your morality is ONLY YOUR own, then it has no more validity than ANY other personally-derived basis of morality.

Quote:

I'm heartened by the fact that most religions have moved or are moving to accept it, and I believe that even though you guys misguidedly persecute them, your grandchildren won't.

I don't know of anyone on this board who persecutes homosexuals. But if you equate calling same-gender sex sinful with persecution, then I would say most Christians including those in this forum are guilty as charged.

Quote:

My grandparents were conservative, bible-believing, loving people, and completely racist. I don't necessarily fault them for that, since they were raised in a culture that believed those things and were intellectually crippled by Bronze-age dogma. I remember them teaching me that Ham was the first Black man, and African slavery was a result of his curse. People's beliefs are often simply a product of their culture, and as culture changes beliefs will too. It usually takes a couple generations to happen, but it will certainly happen.

There are many beliefs that people think are Bible-based which are in fact mere human prejudices or opinions. But as long as the Word of God endures, there will always be people who believe that while God hates homosexual practice, God loves homosexuals, and murderers, and adulterers, etc. etc.

[skyblue888]

I think we can argue homosexuality on purely practical and biological terms.

1) In evolutionary-talk ... it's a degenerative path

2) In emotional terms it is repulsive.

There's something in us that would innately make us repulsed by the idea.

3) In psychological terms it's a deviation.

So, what you essentially saying that gay people should be viewed as normal people... while by definition homosexuality is a deviation from "normality".

Sure, we accept many deviations in society... but where's the line by that definition? Necrophiliacs? Zoophiliacs? I mean, why not?

Personally, I wish this picture was removed.

Thank you.

sky

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Gerry, I'm going to assume that your 500,000 figure comes from estimated AIDS deaths. To assert that everyone who contracts and dies of AIDS does so as a direct result of homosexuality is to betray a gross ignorance of the subject.

I don't know what happened to my previous response, so I'm responding to this post again.

Did I make any such assertion? I realize this might be an emotionally charged discussion for some, but I suggest that you read more carefully.

Quote:

Again, nobody is getting hurt.

You are perfectly free to believe and assert it all you want, but the over half a million dead are facts that contradict your belief. The reason those figures are only estimates is because the diagnosis of AIDS/HIV is cloaked in secrecy. Every highly communicable disease is reportable, but not so with AIDS/HIV. Gays have managed to block it.

Gerry, you just did it again. You denied making the assertion that everyone in the USA who dies of AIDS does so as a result of homosexuality, but then you implied it again in your next paragraph.

In response to the statement "homosexuality doesn't hurt people."

You replied that "half a million dead ... contradict your belief."

How could you have made it any more clear?

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

So, I guess it was God's love for those in Sodom that got them killed?

Yes, it was. That's because "agape" can't force. They persistently and ultimately rejected their need of God until He could no longer reach them through His Spirit. They had completely hardened their hearts & minds so God removed Himself from their presence.

Quote:

So He loved them soooooo much He had them killed? Hmmmm?

They brought destruction upon themselves. Keep in mind the following verse:

Deuteronomy 31:17 Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

The idea is when God removes Himself from humanity bad things happen. This can be seen in Romans chapter one. Here we have people that know of God, yet refuse God. What happens? "God gives them up"! He gives them up because they refuse to have Him in their lives. He can't force Himself on those who reject Him and be righteous simultaneously.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful [i.e., they rejected God], but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up

Wow, I am very impressed and very happy to hear this. How refreshing! Yes, the Lord has no choice but to give them up and they are left without any control over their evil passions and without any protection from the evil one.

sky

[Gerr]

I still maintain that we as a society rejected slavery on social and moral grounds that had virtually nothing to do with scripture (Remember where the Bible belt is geographically with respect to the civil war). The Bible was actually used by slave-owners for centuries in defense of the practice. Why do you reject the Bibles guidelines on slavery but not its guidelines on homosexuality?

I believe you are mistaken on this. On what moral grounds was slavery rejected? Certainly not from evolution. The prime movers that eventually ended overt slavery based their moral arguments on the very Book that you are trying to dismiss. We are all brothers and sisters by creation and redemption. One cannot truly be a Christian and ignore the command, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

[skyblue888]

John, How do you know the mind of God? How can anyone say that Jesus loves them? Just because the bible has that in it? I caution everyone not to tell people what God thinks or not. He alone does His own thinking.

What that sign read might not be the truth! Remember the flood? Did God love all of those people? Huh? If He did, then I sure don't want Him to love me in the same way!

"God so loved the world..." John 3:16.

God loved the people who lived before the flood just as He loved the people who lived after the flood and He loves the people who are now living upon the earth. But when He is forced to withdraw His protecting care from individuals, and even from churches and nations, disaster after disaster fall upon them. But these judgments of God do not come directly out from the Lord upon them. They place themselves beyond His protection.

sky

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Gerry, you just did it again. You denied making the assertion that everyone in the USA who dies of AIDS does so as a result of homosexuality, but then you implied it again in your next paragraph.

In response to the statement "homosexuality doesn't hurt people."

You replied that "half a million dead ... contradict[s'] your belief."

How could you have made it any more clear?

[color:blue]

" Originally Posted By: Igakusei

There's a key difference between homosexuality and all of the other behaviors you've listed. In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

My response:

Huh? Nobody hurt? Does mutual consent make it right? Over HALF A MILLION in the USA alone have died of AIDS, most of which no doubt were the result of consensual sex. And how many of them were unsuspecting innocent bystanders who didn't know that their partner had been having consensual sex with someone else? I don't believe there is such a thing as a sin in which no one gets hurt.

MOST has never been and never will be = EVERYONE

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

I still maintain that we as a society rejected slavery on social and moral grounds that had virtually nothing to do with scripture (Remember where the Bible belt is geographically with respect to the civil war). The Bible was actually used by slave-owners for centuries in defense of the practice. Why do you reject the Bibles guidelines on slavery but not its guidelines on homosexuality?

I believe you are mistaken on this. On what moral grounds was slavery rejected? Certainly not from evolution. The prime movers that eventually ended overt slavery based their moral arguments on the very Book that you are trying to dismiss. We are all brothers and sisters by creation and redemption. One cannot truly be a Christian and ignore the command, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Evolution certainly wasn't a key player, given the timeline of events. Regardless, your "certainly not from evolution" betrays that you are the victim of a common misunderstanding of evolution, happily perpetuated by many a pastor from the pulpit. Evolution teaches that we are all cousins, and that we haven't been separate long enough for any significant differences to crop up between us. Psychologically we are all the same.

This is essentially the same message you draw from the creation story, where we are all cousins descended form Adam and Eve. Unfortunately the Bible has been repeatedly used to reinforce racism (curse of Ham, etc). The Jews were persecuted and hated for millennia by Christians as "Christ-killers." I know Adventists don't generally do this, but to assert that Evolutionary theory leads to racism is absolutely and positively wrong. I find myself caring significantly more about other humans and life on the planet in general since I accepted this reality.

I won't deny that the Bible was also used in opposition to slavery, but my point was that since you can (and people did) make a compelling theological argument from the Bible in support of slavery that it's not exactly a good guide on the matter. The idea that Evolution is "survival of the fittest" and supports slavery and colonialism is a gross distortion and ignores all of the strides that secular philosophy and civilization has made.