Gay Billboard

[Bravus]

Couple of pages late, but IMO we need to kick 'but'.

[Woody]

Bravus I am not sure what you mean ... butt I would like to know whose but you are kicking.

[Dr. Shane]

The truth is that God loves everyone and died for every one. God's love and forgiveness are universal. My sins were on the cross with the sins of everyone else. The only variable is the sinner's acceptance. Will I accept God's love and forgiveness for me? Some will accept it, others will not. God loves each one. Even those that will burn in the fires of hell are loved by God. God's anger is actually a fruit of His love and the total destruction of the wicked is called a strange act in Scripture.

[Guest]

Don't mean to rain on your words, but read Gen. 19:24. Now you tell me who it was who killed all of those gay people? Huh? God did it.

I reckon He did...

[Bravus]

He didn't kill them because they were gay, though. And, in fact, they probably weren't gay: they were equal opportunity rapists. Read the whole story.

But what does God say? Isaiah 1:

10 Hear the word of the LORD,

you rulers of Sodom;

listen to the instruction of our God,

you people of Gomorrah!

16 Wash and make yourselves clean.

Take your evil deeds out of my sight;

stop doing wrong.

17 Learn to do right; seek justice.

Defend the oppressed.[a]

Take up the cause of the fatherless;

plead the case of the widow.

Ezekiel 16

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

[Bravus]

Bravus I am not sure what you mean ... butt I would like to know whose but you are kicking.

By 'kick but' I meant we should kick the habit of saying 'God loves everyone BUT...' When we can speak the sentence 'God loves everyone' and stop there we'll be a lot better off.

[Sonny]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Don't mean to rain on your words, but read Gen. 19:24. Now you tell me who it was who killed all of those gay people? Huh? God did it.

I reckon He did...

Well, we could go on and on forever and ever presenting opposing views on the question does God kill, but know one is going to change their minds....Instead I prefer to look at this issue rationally.

How can you believe and accept a God who threatens you with death if you don't accept Him?

E.G., if I came up to you and said, "hey, my name is Sonny - I want to be your friend, but if you reject my request I'll kill you" would you befriend me or would you have me arrested?

[Dr. Shane]

Adventists understand what many other denominations do not. Adventist understand that God is love entirely. Many other denominations believe some people will receive God's love and the rest of the people will receive God's justice. Adventists understand God's justice to be a fruit of His love. The cross allows God to be both just and merciful with those that are saved. The belief of total annihilation of the wicked allows God to be both just and merciful with those that are lost. So from the Adventist perspective, God's love doesn't mean much to any given individual unless the individual chooses to accept that love.

So a billboard that says, "God Loves Gay People" from an Adventist perspective. To those denominations that believe God's love means heaven and God's justice means hell, the billboard means something completely different.

[Dr. Shane]

E.G., if I came up to you and said, "hey, my name is Sonny - I want to be your friend, but if you reject my request I'll kill you" would you befriend me or would you have me arrested?

That is not a real good analogy. For the unrepentant sinner, heaven would be eternal boredom. It would be torture. The unrepentant sinner would find no joy in heaven. Without sin, they would rather not exist at all.

God offers us a transformed heart. With the transformed heart we will find joy in heaven. So the choice is a transformed heart or total annihilation.

Remember the words to the old country song, "If heaven ain't a lot like Texas, I don't want to go." Well, there are many unrepentant sinners that don't want to go to heaven and because God loves them so much, He won't send them there either.

[John317]

How can you believe and accept a God who threatens you with death if you don't accept Him?

If I came up to you and said, "hey, my name is Sonny - I want to be your friend, but if you reject my request I'll kill you" would you befriend me or would you have me arrested?

This is a familiar argument on the Adventist Forum, but what you say here is not really applicable to God, because He has already demonstrated that He loves us unconditionally with an infinite love. Therefore what God says about the alternative to loving Him-- i.e., death-- is based only on love. You may take it as a "threat of death" if you choose to, but it is more like the advice of your doctor who tells you that unless you take an antidote, you will die. God knows what the results will be of holding on to sin and not loving Him.

What we must realize is that there is no way that a loving God can allow sin and sinners to continue to exist indefinitely in the universe. If He did, He wouldn't be a God of love. For God to do so would be somewhat like a mother who allows a poisonous snake in the bed of her baby. She loves her baby too much to allow that, and God is the same way: He loves His created beings too much to allow sin and death to reign forever in His universe.

[LifeHiscost]

I believe the statement can stand on its own!

[LifeHiscost]

So, I guess it was God's love for those in Sodom that got them killed? So He loved them soooooo much He had them killed? Hmmmm?

It was either that or let them live forever without end in the enslavement of addiction to hatred, maliciousness, covetousness, fear, prejudice, selfishness and predations. And since there wouldn't be any godly quarantined where they had to be isolated, they would have to prey on each other, never finding rest from their chosen lifestyles.

Sounds to me like it was an act of mercy, not a punishment as some would have us believe.

"So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession."James 1:16-18 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

John, How do you know the mind of God? How can anyone say that Jesus loves them? Just because the bible has that in it? I caution everyone not to tell people what God thinks or not. He alone does His own thinking.

"For,“Who can know the Lord’s thoughts?Who knows enough to teach him?” But we understand these things, for we have the mind of Christ."1 Corinthians 2:16 NLT

God blesses!

[Kevin H]

The vast majority of people who have ever lived will be lost. Only a relative few (compared to the number born into this world) will be saved in God's eternal kingdom. That is bad news, especially for God, but it is the truth-- that is, unless the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are lying.

John, there are some texts that indicate what you said, but there are others that indicate more saved, or about half and half, so my understanding is that it is very much conditional with different possibilities. Second, prophecies are not given to be written in stone and for us to give up hope, but prophecies of warning are to encourage us to change the conditions so that the outcome would change.

Finally, there are two things in Ellen White that I have trouble reconcilling with your statement: As she discribes those outside and inside of the city, first, in the great controversy she has the father of lies, the lier above all liers tell his followers that they can overcome because there are more of them outside the city than inside. However she states plainly in Acts of the Apostels that there are more inside the city then outside of the city. So shall we believe her quote of the lier or shall we believe her own statement of fact?

True, she also has the "few" warnings, why should we accept only part of what she says and throw out what she says that does not fit what we like her to say?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

When you tell people that God loves them, they often picture God as an old man in a white beard who will save them no matter what.

This would be a true picture.

God will save us "no matter what"

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

I guess then that would mean that there will be a place in heaven who have given their lives over to the enemy of souls, whose name use to be Lucifer.

Sounds inconsistent with this below.

"

But with an (overflowing flood

He will make a complete end of its site,

And will pursue His enemies into darkness.

Whatever you devise against the LORD,

He will make a complete end of it.

Distress will not rise up twice.

Like tangled thorns,

And like those who are (drunken with their drink,

They are consumed

As stubble completely withered."Nahum 1:7-9 NASB

God blesses!

[Kevin H]

The people in Sodom were not what we see in today's homosexuals. They were people who were married and had a family. In the time they lived there were two beliefs that we need to be aware of:

1. The Canaanites believe that through uniting their life forces that they could help Baal defeat the Leviathan thus bring the life giving rains for their crops to grow, while if Baal lost in this cycle then it would be famine and they would stave. Thus they had special feasts, in the spring the feast of unlevened bread, in the fall the day of atonement with the two goats, etc. and everyone would come to the temple to unite their life forces to help Baal out. They would do this by everyone having sex with each other, including having sex with their children and animals, mixing together different grains and wearing clothes of mixed textiles. They believed if they did not do this that Baal might not be strong enough to defeat the leviathan.

2. They also believed that by raping a person that they could steal some of their lifeforces and that it would go to their family. They believed if they raped a man that some of the lambs and goats that would have been born to his flocks will now be born to your flocks. Some of the food that would have grown in his garden and feed his family, would grow in your garden and feed your family. Children that would have been born to his wife would be born to your wife... Oops, so much for our presupositions.

[LifeHiscost]

The vast majority of people who have ever lived will be lost. Only a relative few (compared to the number born into this world) will be saved in God's eternal kingdom.

I do recognize what you are saying John. However of recent I'm somewhat of another mind.

"And I heard how many were marked with the seal of God—144,000 were sealed from all the tribes of Israel:

from Judah — 12,000

from Reuben — 12,000

from Gad — 12,000

from Asher — 12,000

from Naphtali — 12,000

from Manasseh — 12,000

from Simeon — 12,000

from Levi — 12,000

from Issachar — 12,000

from Zebulun — 12,000

from Joseph — 12,000

from Benjamin — 12,000

After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a mighty shout,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne

and from the Lamb!"

God Blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Don't mean to rain on your words, but read Gen. 19:24. Now you tell me who it was who killed all of those gay people? Huh? God did it.

They brought destruction upon themselves because they persistently reject God's love.

Let's say you are assigned an FBI agent because you've ratted on the mob. Let's say I'm the agent. As long as I remain with you everything is okay, but the day you tell me to get lost that day you die. Who caused your death?

You did....You brought destruction upon yourself. Ultimately, as the agent, I am responsible, but since I can't force my protection on you are to blame.

Very good example!!! Gives me a better grasp of the reason why freedom of choice is more important to God than His desire for us to be in Heaven with Him. It reveals His willingness to put us first, even in the face of disaster to our own soul's wellbeing.

God Blesses!

[John317]

However she states plainly in Acts of the Apostels that there are more inside the city then outside of the city.

Do you have a page number in AA?

If she says what you claim here, she would clearly be contradiciting herself.

In 2 T 293-294, she makes the following statement:

"The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experiecne the second death."

If Ellen White says anywhere that more humans will be saved inside the city than lost outside the city, I will throw out her books. Why? Because she would be wrong in one of her statements, and not only wrong, but she would be contradicting the plain statemetns of the Bible and in this way prove herself to be a false prophet.

In EW 293-294, Ellen White says that Satan will tell the lost that "the company in the city is small and feeble." A similar description is found in 3 SG 83-87. (I realize you mentioned this in your post.) Of course Satan is a liar and cannot be trusted, but in this instance, in describing the relative few in the city, Satan is telling the truth about the number of "countless millions" who were foolish enough to follow him.

Outside the city, the number of lost are described in both the Bible and in the SOP as "a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea." GC 662; Rev. 20: 8. Nowhere are the saved described in such terms.

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, for sure there will be many millions saved, but compared to the many billions who have lived, it will be a comparative few.

Ellen White says that the great majority of people who have lived will perish. The Bible implies this too, when it talks about the end-times, descibing "the whole world" as following after the beast and receiving the mark and the plagues. Then also at the end it says the wicked are as the sands of the sea shore.

But you are right that there will be an unnumbered multitude saved, proving that anyone could have been saved if only they had chosen to be.

God's promises. Our decision, to serve One or the other.

"He will go out to deceive the nations—called Gog and Magog—in every corner of the earth. He will gather them together for battle—a mighty army, as numberless as sand along the seashore. "Revelation 20:8 NLT

"“Yet the time will come when Israel’s people will be like the sands of the seashore—too many to count! Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ it will be said, ‘You are children of the living God.’"

Hosea 1:10 NLT

God blesses!

[John317]

God's promises. Our decision, to serve One or the other.

Everyone must serve one or the other, as you say. Some think they can be independent and only serve themselves, but they're falling for a lie. Not to positively commit ourselves fully to Christ is,-- whether we know it or not-- to become partners with Satan and share his doom.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

So if the instances in the Bible of people miraculously dying are caused by people turning away from God, then why don't we see anything like that today? Sin is less destructive now?

Interesting thought SivartM.

Maybe it's just small potatoes, but wouldn't the 40,000,000 Russians who died under one despots power, or another 40,000,000 who died as the result of another dictator be a harbinger of coming disasters. I don't think there is a long period in front of us before plagues and pestilences will make the past look like the good old days.

"And you will hear of wars and threats of wars, but don’t panic. Yes, these things must take place, but the end won’t follow immediately. Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in many parts of the world, as well as famines. But this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

“When these things begin to happen, watch out! You will be handed over to the local councils and beaten in the synagogues. You will stand trial before governors and kings because you are my followers. But this will be your opportunity to tell them about me."Mark 13:7-9 NLT

God blesses!

[Bravus]

Maybe it's just small potatoes, but wouldn't the 40,000,000 Russians who died under one despots power, or another 40,000,000 who died as the result of another dictator be a harbinger of coming disasters. I don't think there is a long period in front of us before plagues and pestilences will make the past look like the good old days.

??

[Kevin H]

Yes, God does kill, he uses nature and punishes. However there is a difference between the first and second death. Yes, God used the natural elements to destroy Sodom and Gamoriah. (however I wonder just how many, if any gays were killed then. There were people who were so sick that they thought that they were stealing by raping someone, and their wifes and their sexually and morally abused children who were being raised as selfish don't care about anyone else people who died)

However when it comes to hell fire at the end of time; God himself is the fire. When Prophets first saw God they felt like they were being burned alive, however came to thrive in this fire.

Jesus is our deepest desire. The philosopher / Poet Eli Siegel said that our deepest desire is to like the world on an honest basis. Ellen White said "When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts" It would be wise for us to spend a thoughtful hour reading the title of her biography of Jesus. Jesus is the Desire of Ages, the Desire of ALL Nations, the one beloved of women, the one sweeter than honey and the honeycomb, the one more desirable than gold, the lilly of the valley.

We have two competeing attitudes fighting inside of us; our deepest desire to be like and with Jesus, to love the world as he has loved it, and our sinful nature. Mr. Siegel said "There is in every person a disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world" and Mrs. White said "There is in every man a disposition to esteem himself more hightly than his breathern, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit."

Everything we do is influenced by these two attitudes, but we choose to go more one way or more the other. However even our best is tanted by our disposition to selfishness, even wanting to go to heaven has a tant of selfishness in it. And our worst is at even tanted with our deepest desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, and we think our evil tasks are manipulating the world so that we can like it a little bit better.

At the end of time we see Jesus in his full divinity, and Jesus is our deepest desire. This is the same Jesus who the prophets felt like they were being burned alive when they first saw, who except for moments, needed to veil his glory by his full humanity while on earth otherwise everyone would have been distroyed by this glory. We only get to read about him in the Bible and thoughts and studies about the words in the Bible. But also the Holy Spirit is working on everyone's heart pointing them towards Jesus. They may not recognize the vocabulary, but they know the character and personality. We are at a big advantage that we know that this character and personality actually lived among us and can read the records of his communication with us through out history, especially his years on earth. However the Holy Spirit testifies to everyone about Jesus. Just as when Jesus was on earth some loved to be with him others wanted to be away from him. However he was still their deepest desire.

So at the end of time when we see Jesus, it is always the conflect between our deepest desire and our sinful nature. At the second coming when we see Jesus in the clouds, we, ALL of us seeing it will be overcome by our sinful nature and ask "Who shall be able to stand?" The angel's stop their singing. For the Saved the sinful nature has it's last hurah. However after a moment of horrible silence, Jesus sings "My grace is sufficient for you!"

When Jesus says this we find two different results. For some they realize "Yes, this is our friend who has been with our lives! This is my God and he will save me!" and their sinful nature is killed by this revelation and they are finally completely freed from their sinful nature and love being in the fire of Jesus' glory! However we find others who are saying that Jesus is a lier (like how we find some here who are tying to tap dance over Jesus' words to make them fit tradition instead of what they actually say) they do not believe that Jesus' grace is sufficient for them, and they run to the rocks and caves and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb" John and Ellen White have fun with the term "Wrath of the Lamb" How many of you expect to turn on CNN and Fox and hear "New York city is in pannic as a lamb escapes from the central park zoo" John and Mrs. White are saying that they have no more need to be afraid of Jesus than they need to be of a little lamb. However no matter how white headed kindly old man who will save them no matter what that we try to use to make any other picture of God than having some kind of external punnishment, as far as those who run to the rock are conserned, they are horrified of Jesus and believe that he is going to get them and they are destroyed by the brightness of his coming.

Finally at the very end, when Jesus raises the lost, and we all see Jesus, the lost are still in the fight between the sinful nature, which they let be the controling force in their life, however just because it is the one in power does not do away with the fact that the one most powerful, their deepest desire is to be like and with Jesus. They see Jesus and are attracted to him and want to come, but they have developed a character of rejecting the pleadings of the Holy Spirit and thus it becomes characteristic of them to refuse to yield to the Holy Spirit's pledings. It has become characteristic of then to refuse the drawing power to Jesus. They have distoryed their will power and have become slaves to feelings. Like all living at the second coming they see the contrast between their sinfulness to his purity and feel that his grace cannot be sufficient for them. They are unforgiving people and they cannot comprehend how God can forgive them. They want to hide from him and get away from the only source of life. They see loved ones inside the city who they long to be with, but also remember how they have taken advantage of their loved ones, and how they would still take advantage of them. They see others who they hurt and they know that the one on the throne can see the deepest secrets of their life and they want to pull back. Jesus in John 3 says that the lost are lost becasue they are afraid to come to the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed, they fear that God is going to get them for their sins, but thst those who dispite this fear do come to the light will find instead of a condemming God, they find that thier actions and lives change into his immage.

The lost are in a hell of wanting to come to Jesus but refusing. His love and grace continues to pull them, but they refuse to yield and have distroyed their ability to yield. I believe that John Calvin is correct in saying that grace is irrisistable. These pepole simply cannot exist risisting grace. Everyone has to yield to this irrisistable grace or be killed by it. They sepperate themselves from the only source of life. The are in a hell of wanting to yeild to grace and run to Jesus in repentance, and their characteristic resistance to this and their wanting to hide from the one who sits on the throne and their fear that his grace is not sufficient for them. This split in them moves from the psychological level to the physical and quite litterally ripps them appart and disintergrates them.

God does the same thing to them that he does to the saved. Jesus treats them the same. Put a butter sculpure and a cramatic sculpture into a fire and one is distroyed the other becomes a great work of art. Same fire, different results due to the character of who is in the fire.

[John317]

The people in Sodom were not what we see in today's homosexuals. They were people who were married and had a family.

Yes, I'm sure of this too, Kevin. They were generally what we today would call bi-sexual. There were also many of these in ancient Greece. In fact, it was common. A man would have a wife to produce progeny, but he was mostly interested sexually in teen-age boys, 13-17. Once a boy became a man, he would do the same. Similar practices were to be found in first century Rome, but not to the same extent as in Greece. References to these practices may be found in ancient Greek literature, such as in Plato's dialogues and in some of the plays.

Can you give quotes and references for your last two paragraphs where you describe the two main ideas-- sex with one's own children and rape of men?

But even so, what evidence is there that these practices that you described were in any way connected with what occurred in Sodom and Gommorah? And doesn't it prove that God looks upon that behavior-- ie., sex with members of one's own gender-- as sinful and worthy of punishment? It doesn't matter whether it is a culturally accepted thing or not-- it is still condemned by God.