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[John317]

Before Christ returns, what was seen in World War II and the Nazi holocaust, will be seen all over the world, only worse. It will be worse because the Holy Spirit will be completely withdrawn from those who've rejected the Three Angels Messages and therefore people won't have any love or compassion.

[LifeHiscost]

Couple of pages late, but IMO we need to kick 'but'.

I guess we could do that. On the other hand, if we don't mind living with the thought that our unwillingness to tell others that the bridge has washed out, led to their death, will we ourselves feel comfortable knowing that many people have missed out on eternal life as a direct result of giving no warning and acting as if everything is as it always has been.

"There is a path before each person that seems right,

but it ends in death.Prov 16:25 NLT

There is a path before each person that seems right,

but it ends in death."Proverbs 14:12 NLT

It seems since it was put into the Word twice in close succession, it might have some more important significance than

just, "Everything is going to be alright."

God blesses!

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

However she states plainly in Acts of the Apostels that there are more inside the city then outside of the city.

Do you have a page number in AA?

If she says what you claim here, she would clearly be contradiciting herself.

In 2 T 293-294, she makes the following statement:

"The word of God plainly tells us that few will be saved, and that the greater number of those, even, who are called will prove themselves unworthy of everlasting life. They will have no part in heaven, but will have their portion with Satan, and experiecne the second death."

If Ellen White says anywhere that more humans will be saved inside the city than lost outside the city, I will throw out her books. Why? Because she would be wrong in one of her statements, and not only wrong, but she would be contradicting the plain statemetns of the Bible and in this way prove herself to be a false prophet.

I will have to get back to you with the page number, but it is there. I remember going to a union wide youth railly when I was in the 10 or 11 th grade and the speaker read that quote and caused an uproar and upset people, which went to an uncomfortable silence when it was pointed out that his controversial statement was an Ellen White quote.

But John, I know you too well. You tend to prefer tradition, however when you come to facts that clearly contradict your traditions, you hate it, but so far have always come kicking and screaming and protesting to Jesus. I doubt that characteristic will change.

[John317]

Not true. You don't know me. What I like is accuracy and documentation, Kevin.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: Kevin H

The people in Sodom were not what we see in today's homosexuals. They were people who were married and had a family.

Yes, I'm sure of this too, Kevin. They were generally what we today would call bi-sexual. There were also many of these in ancient Greece. In fact, it was common. A man would have a wife to produce progeny, but he was mostly interested sexually in teen-age boys, 13-17. Once a boy became a man, he would do the same. Similar practices were to be found in first century Rome, but not to the same extent as in Greece. References to these practices may be found in ancient Greek literature, such as in Plato's dialogues and in some of the plays.

Can you give quotes and references for your last two paragraphs where you describe the two main ideas-- sex with one's own children and rape of men?

But even so, what evidence is there that these practices that you described were in any way connected with what occurred in Sodom and Gommorah? And doesn't it prove that God looks upon that behavior-- ie., sex with members of one's own gender-- as sinful and worthy of punishment? It doesn't matter whether it is a culturally accepted thing or not-- it is still condemned by God.

Except, John, that a large amount of the ancient world's homosexual practices appears to be not the bisexuality you are pointing out in the Greeks ans Romans, but that a lot of this was acts of penatence, like when people whip themselves or Luther starving himself and sleeping in the cold, they were having sex with men not because they wanted to but to deny the flesh and gain the god's favors that they would do these things that they saw as gross, as an unpleasant work needed to help the gods, gain the god's pleasure, believing that this gross act will make their family life be blessed and better.

[Kevin H]

Not true. You don't know me. What I like is accuracy and documentation, Kevin.

True, no one can really know someone, and it is contemptious to think that we can, and I appologize. I meant that phrase sort of tongue in cheek, however there are charistricts that you see. Yes, althought you really like tradition a lot, you do like accruacy and documentation much more. I've seen you when your traditon clashes with accuracy and documentation, and when we find that quote, I strongly doubt that you are going to throw away her books, or do a Walter Rea. I may be wrong, however I have a sneeking suspicition that you will learn how to fit this quote with the others, use it for growth, and continue to benifit from her writings and ministry.

[John317]

I will have to get back to you with the page number, but it is there. I remember going to a union wide youth railly when I was in the 10 or 11 th grade and the speaker read that quote and caused an uproar and upset people, which went to an uncomfortable silence when it was pointed out that his controversial statement was an Ellen White quote.

But John, I know you too well. You tend to prefer tradition, however when you come to facts that clearly contradict your traditions, you hate it, but so far have always come kicking and screaming and protesting to Jesus. I doubt that characteristic will change.

You don't know me from Adam, Kevin. You know me about as well as you know the statement Ellen White wrote saying more people will be saved than lost. Only thing is she never said it.

Is this the "controversial statement" which you claim teaches that there will be more saved inside the city than outside who are lost? Notice it says no such thing. It is only saying that the small number of Christians are in the majority because God is always the majority, and of course they are on God's side along with many millions of angels. But she also says that compared to the millions of the world, God's people-- the saved-- will be a little flock. That agrees completely with what she says elsewhere, that "few" will be saved.

Quote:

"He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Matthew 24:31.

In comparison with the millions of the world, God's people will be, as they have ever been, a little flock; but if they stand for the truth as revealed in His word, God will be their refuge. They stand under the broad shield of Omnipotence. God is always a majority. When the sound of the last trump shall penetrate the prison house of the dead, and the righteous shall come forth with triumph, exclaiming, "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" (1 Corinthians 15:55)--standing then with God, with Christ, with the angels, and with the loyal and true of all ages, the children of God will be far in the majority.

Christ's true disciples follow Him through sore conflicts, enduring self-denial and experiencing bitter disappointment; but this teaches them the guilt and woe of sin, and they are led to look upon it with abhorrence. Partakers of Christ's sufferings, they are destined to be partakers of His glory. In holy vision the prophet saw the ultimate triumph of God's remnant church. AA 589, 590

If this is not the statement you were talking about, where is it? If there is such a statement as you describe, it would contradict the one found on AA 590. That would mean

not only does Ellen White contradict herself in a different book, but she contradicts herself within the same book. I find that hard to believe. But I will wait for your quote from AA.

Do you mean that you haven't seen the quote since the 10th or 11th grade? Are you sure you remembered it correctly? :-)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Not true. You don't know me. What I like is accuracy and documentation, Kevin.

True, no one can really know someone, and it is contemptious to think that we can, and I appologize. I meant that phrase sort of tongue in cheek, however there are charistricts that you see. Yes, althought you really like tradition a lot, you do like accruacy and documentation much more. I've seen you when your traditon clashes with accuracy and documentation, and when we find that quote, I strongly doubt that you are going to throw away her books, or do a Walter Rea. I may be wrong, however I have a sneeking suspicition that you will learn how to fit this quote with the others, use it for growth, and continue to benifit from her writings and ministry.

Kevin, you are wrong in just about everything you said here.

What I like is Bible truth, not "tradition."

See the post just above this one for the quote you believed teaches that more will be saved than lost. I think I found that quote.

Your "sneaking suspicion" turns out to be about as wrong as your statement that you know me well and I "like tradition a lot." The fact is I despise tradition unless it is founded squarely on truth.

Maybe you would see nothing wrong with someone saying "only a few will be saved," and then in the next breath saying, "more will be saved than lost," but I do. In my book, that's a flat contradition, of the kind that true prophets of God do not make.

[Bravus]

Before Christ returns, what was seen in World War II and the Nazi holocaust, will be seen all over the world, only worse. It will be worse because the Holy Spirit will be completely withdrawn from those who've rejected the Three Angels Messages and therefore people won't have any love or compassion.

All I was querying was the alleged two lots of 40 million Russians due to two dictators. I know of 20 m from Stalin but that's about it.

The truth is important.

[John317]

Oh I see. :-) I misunderstood you.

[John317]

Except, John, that a large amount of the ancient world's homosexual practices appears to be not the bisexuality you are pointing out in the Greeks ans Romans, but that a lot of this was acts of penatence, like when people whip themselves or Luther starving himself and sleeping in the cold, they were having sex with men not because they wanted to but to deny the flesh and gain the god's favors that they would do these things that they saw as gross, as an unpleasant work needed to help the gods, gain the god's pleasure, believing that this gross act will make their family life be blessed and better.

What culture was this?

You are saying these people were punishing themselves by having sex with men. They hated doing it but they forced themselves. That's kinda hard to swallow.

You must have some good documentation in support of this at your finger tips, right? I would like to see it.

Sounds more than a little fishy to me.

[Gerr]

Question, why is there always a 'but' in so much of Christian theology?

We read a positive statement and then throw in a 'but'!

Why do we always assume some people 'might think' even though the negative is not expressed in a positive statement?

I believe the statement can stand on its own!

OK, here's one with no "ifs" or "buts":

God loves homosexuals. God hates homosexuality.

God loves ALL sinners. God hates ALL sin.

[Igakusei]

Bunch of homophobes in here. The Bible also says you should stone your disrespectful children, and not to beat your slaves so hard that you cause them permanent damage. The only reason you hang on to the homosexual hatred is because you personally find it distasteful. If you had only ever been attracted to people of your own gender, I guarantee you'd all be singing a different tune.

[LifeHiscost]

The truth is important.

When one cannot gainsay the grossness of the deed, the evilness gains approval by picking at its' weak points. Perhaps we should give medals to the two parties largely responsible for the misdeeds. There are some today who believe this to be the right thing to do. And those same have already explained away the holocaust of world war II, in the face of the multitudinous amount of pictorial evidence to the contrary.

As general Dwight Eisenhower observed, words to this affect,

"Get as many pictures as you can, for there will always be some

b-----d in the future who will swear it never happened."

God blesses!

[Gerr]

Bunch of homophobes in here. The Bible also says you should stone your disrespectful children, and not to beat your slaves so hard that you cause them permanent damage. The only reason you hang on to the homosexual hatred is because you personally find it distasteful. If you had only ever been attracted to people of your own gender, I guarantee you'd all be singing a different tune.

Welcome to the Club. If I were you though, I wouldn't be making a blanket statement like that. John 317 will tell you he used to be a homosexual. We have ALL sinned. As fallen humans, however, we have the strange notion that somehow our particular sin is not as bad as someone else's.

[Igakusei]

The guilt is powerful enough to turn the occasional homosexual, but the vast majority end up outside of religion. One of my best friends has been completely disowned by his Baptist family over the issue. He's young, intelligent, and highly successful but his relationship with his own family has been ruined because of the hatred of a bunch of first-century sheepherders.

[LifeHiscost]

Bunch of homophobes in here. The Bible also says you should stone your disrespectful children, and not to beat your slaves so hard that you cause them permanent damage. The only reason you hang on to the homosexual hatred is because you personally find it distasteful. If you had only ever been attracted to people of your own gender, I guarantee you'd all be singing a different tune.

This among other behaviors might be good to include in the new heavens and the new earth, like murder, rape, sodomy, fear, child molestation, spousal abuse, profanity, drug addiction, thievery, parental abuse, home invasion, slavery, etc, adnauseam. Just think. We could stay right here on this earth and never have to go to a better place and atmosphere and live under a dictatorial rule that makes us stop what is contrary to life and happiness, for others as well as ourselves.

"“But My people would not heed My voice,

And Israel would have none of Me.

So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart,

To walk in their own counsels.

“Oh, that My people would listen to Me,

That Israel would walk in My ways!"

Psalm 81:11-13 NKJV

"That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done."Romans 1:26-28 NLT

God blesses!

[Igakusei]

There's a key difference between homosexuality and all of the other behaviors you've listed. In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

[Stan]

In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

Maybe not at the moment, but there are scars left behind.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

Maybe not at the moment, but there are scars left behind.

I agree wholeheartedly with Stan on this one. The Bible says that illicit sin is a sin against oneself. I think I can understand that. There really are no winners.

[Dr. Rich]

John 317, are you saying that not all of Israel will be saved? (Rom. 11:26) What 'city' are you talking about?

[Dr. Rich]

Kevin, thanks for letting us know how God does His killing. And thanks for letting us know the true meaning of Sodomy.

But I was just wondering what God used to kill the first born males who refused to obey what God said at the first Passover? Hmmm?

[Bravus]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

The truth is important.

When one cannot gainsay the grossness of the deed, the evilness gains approval by picking at its' weak points. Perhaps we should give medals to the two parties largely responsible for the misdeeds. There are some today who believe this to be the right thing to do. And those same have already explained away the holocaust of world war II, in the face of the multitudinous amount of pictorial evidence to the contrary.

As general Dwight Eisenhower observed, words to this affect,

"Get as many pictures as you can, for there will always be some

b-----d in the future who will swear it never happened."

God blesses!

It's very easy: give the other name. I don't think Stalin killed 40 million, more like 20, but I contributed his name myself. Rather than accusing me of 'evilness' and holocaust denial, why not just try being a fraction more up front about the point you're making,

I'm not denying anything or nitpicking, I'm asking - out of genuine interest - what you're referring to.

[Bravus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Calculating_the_number_of_victims

[Gerr]

There's a key difference between homosexuality and all of the other behaviors you've listed. In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

Huh? Nobody hurt? Does mutual consent make it right? Over HALF A MILLION in the USA alone have died of AIDS, most of which no doubt were the result of consensual sex. And how many of them were unsuspecting innocent bystanders who didn't know that their partner had been having consensual sex with someone else? I don't believe there is such a thing as a sin in which no one gets hurt.