Gay Billboard

[Igakusei]

No scars left behind? The inability for parents to accept the life choices of their children to the degree that the parent-child relationship is completely and permanently severed leaves far, far deeper scars than any that you falsely imagine are created by a loving relationship between two members of the same sex.

Gerry, I'm going to assume that your 500,000 figure comes from estimated AIDS deaths. To assert that everyone who contracts and dies of AIDS does so as a direct result of homosexuality is to betray a gross ignorance of the subject.

The only reason gay people have a higher incidence of AIDS is that they, statistically, also tend to be more promiscuous. There is absolutely nothing about the homosexual act itself that has any link whatsoever to the spread of HIV.

Again, nobody is getting hurt.

[John317]

God loves homosexuals. God hates homosexuality.

God loves ALL sinners. God hates ALL sin.

This is for sure. It's a distinction that seems to come hard for humans but God makes it easily, fortunately for us.

Hebrews 1:8-9

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

[9] You [Christ] have loved righteousness and hated wickedness [lawlessness];

therefore God, your God, has anointed you

with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

[Igakusei]

Since you edited your post, I'll add a little bit more.

You're correct that sex spreads AIDS (far less effectively than blood contact such as shared needles, but effectively enough).

But now you're talking about infidelity, which I would certainly agree is immoral. To restrict the discussion to homosexuality vs heterosexuality, we have to talk about two consenting adults in a stable relationship. Unless you can demonstrate that homosexuality leads to infidelity, your argument is a non sequitur.

1. Homosexuality does not cause AIDS

AIDS is caused by HIV, which is a lentivirus. It is most closely related to SIV (simian immunodeficiency virus), and most likely crossed over to humans through the practice of eating bushmeat during the early 20th century. The industrialization of sub-Saharan Africa allowed for its subsequent spread through the population and into other countries.

2. Contracting HIV through an undisclosed affair and subsequently giving it to your unsuspecting spouse is immoral, and that has nothing to do with anything I said.

[John317]

John 317, are you saying that not all of Israel will be saved? (Rom. 11:26) What 'city' are you talking about?

All of true Isreal will certainly be saved.

I have reference to the holy city, the New Jerusalem, that comes down onto the earth from God out of heaven in Rev. 22: 2 and 22: 14, 15.

Rev. 22:14-15

Blessed are those who do His commandments [or: wash their robes], so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. [15] Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

[John317]

There's a key difference between homosexuality and all of the other behaviors you've listed. In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

Even if two adults agree to sin, it is still sin. Agreeing to do it-- and not being forced to-- does not make it right. It may look better to humans, but in God's eyes, things are still wrong if they are opposed to God's will.

[Igakusei]

I think we will agree to disagree on this point.

The framework of my morality is built upon alleviation of human suffering. I cannot justify that homosexuality causes human suffering, therefore I cannot justify the horribly immoral acts routinely committed against it.

I'm heartened by the fact that most religions have moved or are moving to accept it, and I believe that even though you guys misguidedly persecute them, your grandchildren won't.

My grandparents were conservative, bible-believing, loving people, and completely racist. I don't necessarily fault them for that, since they were raised in a culture that believed those things and were intellectually crippled by Bronze-age dogma. I remember them teaching me that Ham was the first Black man, and African slavery was a result of his curse. People's beliefs are often simply a product of their culture, and as culture changes beliefs will too. It usually takes a couple generations to happen, but it will certainly happen.

[John317]

Bunch of homophobes in here. The Bible also says you should stone your disrespectful children, and not to beat your slaves so hard that you cause them permanent damage. The only reason you hang on to the homosexual hatred is because you personally find it distasteful. If you had only ever been attracted to people of your own gender, I guarantee you'd all be singing a different tune.

I'm not at all a homophobic but have spent most of my life practicing homosexuality. In fact, I still consider myself gay, although I do not practice, and God is helping me change my likes and dislikes.

Please see:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...s.html#comments

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/399465/Me_At_Moro_Bay_CA.html#comments

[Dr. Shane]

There is absolutely nothing about the homosexual act itself that has any link whatsoever to the spread of HIV.

Anal sex between males with one infected partner injects HIV into the colon of the uninfected one. This is the same means by which medicine is introduced into the blood stream by the use of suppositories. So anal sex with an infected person is like an HIV suppository.

HIV is transmitted by vaginal, heterosexual contact at a much lesser rate than anal sex or sharing needles. Circumcised males have an estimated 70% less chance of getting HIV from vaginal intercourse than their uncircumcised peers.

That said, HIV is not the only damage done to the homosexual from gay sex. Male homosexuality is really a masculinity crisis. Sub-consciously gay men are trying to take on character traits they feel are missing and gay sex is their means to that end. Of course, much like cannibals looking to get character traits from their victims, it doesn't work. Homosexuality is a counterfeit. The gay relationship resembles the ideal caring, nurturing relationship that God created in Eden. It is compared to an ice-cold drink at a desert oasis that upon tasting reveals itself to be urine. It looks good but is not satisfying.

Gays are broken people, much like alcoholics. To some extent, every sinner is broken in one way or another. Often times the damage goes back to the womb. The gay person, much like the alcoholic, is often damaged goods from the time they are born. For the alcoholic there is a lot of hope. Society tells him or her that their behavior is unacceptable and offers them treatment. The homosexual's prospects are not so great. Society tells them their is nothing wrong and they should continue to seek happiness through gay behavior. In essence, they are told to keep searching for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Many will live their whole lives without knowing contentment and peace only to die feeling rejected and alone.

[John317]

I believe that even though you guys misguidedly persecute them, your grandchildren won't.

I would be the last person to persecute them. I would be persecuting myself. If God doesn't love and can't save homosexuals, then that leaves me out.

I don't believe that telling gay people the truth about what the Bible teaches is "persecuting" them. That would be like telling us that saying God hates sin is persecuting sinners.

How am I persecuting gays? Do you know me enough to say this?

To know this, you would have to watch me when I am with gay people.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

There's a key difference between homosexuality and all of the other behaviors you've listed. In consensual sex between adults, nobody is getting hurt.

Huh? Nobody hurt? Does mutual consent make it right? Over HALF A MILLION in the USA alone have died of AIDS, most of which no doubt were the result of consensual sex. And how many of them were unsuspecting innocent bystanders who didn't know that their partner had been having consensual sex with someone else? I don't believe there is such a thing as a sin in which no one gets hurt.

You are absolutely correct, Gerry, about the above emphasized. To think anything else is to accept the first lie involving justifying one's self.

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die."Genesis 3:4 NKJV

God blesses!

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

Bunch of homophobes in here. The Bible also says you should stone your disrespectful children, and not to beat your slaves so hard that you cause them permanent damage. The only reason you hang on to the homosexual hatred is because you personally find it distasteful. If you had only ever been attracted to people of your own gender, I guarantee you'd all be singing a different tune.

I'm not at all a homophobic but have spent most of my life practicing homosexuality. In fact, I still consider myself gay, although I do not practice, and God is helping me change my likes and dislikes.

Please see:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...s.html#comments

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/399465/Me_At_Moro_Bay_CA.html#comments

I will admit that I came on too strong in that post, and I should probably apologize for it. My blood was pumping a little fast after reading some of the earlier posts in the thread.

I think it's important to understand that you are a rare exception in your ability to do what you have. Most gay people can't, and I don't believe that they should have to.

Imagine a world where what adults did with their clothes off behind their own closed doors was their own business and nobody told them they were going to burn in hell for their sick perversions. I contest that the only reason gay people are getting hurt is because bigoted religious people hurt them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you seem to have found a solution that gives you some closure and a sense of purpose and identity in life. I also think it's important for you to understand that your solution will not work for most people born in similar situations.

If God forms people in their mother's wombs, why give them a crippling "sin" that almost invariably results in their eternal damnation? Why not just accept that different people have different preferences and let them get on with their lives?

[Woody]

Quote:

"If God forms people in their mother's wombs, why give them a crippling "sin" that almost invariably results in their eternal damnation? Why not just accept that different people have different preferences and let them get on with their lives?"

I will give you that each of us is tempted with different temptations. I think we are born with certain dispositions that certain temptations will work more easily. And Satan is no dummy. He knows which temptations will work with us the best.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

There is absolutely nothing about the homosexual act itself that has any link whatsoever to the spread of HIV.

Anal sex between males with one infected partner injects HIV into the colon of the uninfected one. This is the same means by which medicine is introduced into the blood stream by the use of suppositories. So anal sex with an infected person is like an HIV suppository.

HIV is transmitted by vaginal, heterosexual contact at a much lesser rate than anal sex or sharing needles. Circumcised males have an estimated 70% less chance of getting HIV from vaginal intercourse than their uncircumcised peers.

That said, HIV is not the only damage done to the homosexual from gay sex. Male homosexuality is really a masculinity crisis. Sub-consciously gay men are trying to take on character traits they feel are missing and gay sex is their means to that end. Of course, much like cannibals looking to get character traits from their victims, it doesn't work. Homosexuality is a counterfeit. The gay relationship resembles the ideal caring, nurturing relationship that God created in Eden. It is compared to an ice-cold drink at a desert oasis that upon tasting reveals itself to be urine. It looks good but is not satisfying.

Gays are broken people, much like alcoholics. To some extent, every sinner is broken in one way or another. Often times the damage goes back to the womb. The gay person, much like the alcoholic, is often damaged goods from the time they are born. For the alcoholic there is a lot of hope. Society tells him or her that their behavior is unacceptable and offers them treatment. The homosexual's prospects are not so great. Society tells them their is nothing wrong and they should continue to seek happiness through gay behavior. In essence, they are told to keep searching for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Many will live their whole lives without knowing contentment and peace only to die feeling rejected and alone.

I know a number of gay people in healthy relationships. The sooner homosexuality is accepted unconditionally as a valid lifestyle, the sooner they can live normal lives and not be confined to the fringes of society where many of the evils you speak of take place.

Also, I don't understand your statistics. You think homosexual sex is immoral in part because it can spread HIV at a greater rate than heterosexual sex (I haven't seen the numbers, so for the sake of argument I'll assume you're correct). Does that mean that heterosexual sex is also immoral but to a proportionally lesser degree because it spreads HIV more slowly? That argument is ridiculous. Nothing prevents gay people from getting themselves and their partners tested for HIV like any consenting heterosexual couple might.

[Dr. Shane]

If God forms people in their mother's wombs, why give them a crippling "sin" that almost invariably results in their eternal damnation? Why not just accept that different people have different preferences and let them get on with their lives?

God doesn't give anyone a sin. God doesn't cause birth defects. Those are the results of sin. God created the world perfect - without sin. In God's perfect world, there was no death or pain. If you are familiar with Adventist theology you can grasp the great controversy theme. If you are unfamiliar with it, you are operating on a number of assumptions that are outside of Adventist thinking.

I think that in general, most evangelical faiths consider homosexuality to be a greater sin than what Adventists do. Adventists do believe it to be a sin but in the same level as alcoholism or other obsessive/compulsive disorders. I don't think there is an *official* Adventist teaching on the subject but we tend not to teach that a gay person can change their orientation. Much like a crippled man can learn to walk with crutches, a gay person can learn to live without participating in the behavior - but he is still gay. Being gay in itself isn't sinful, acting out the behavior is sinful.

[Igakusei]

Originally Posted By: Igakusei

I believe that even though you guys misguidedly persecute them, your grandchildren won't.

I would be the last person to persecute them. I would be persecuting myself. If God doesn't love and can't save homosexuals, then that leaves me out.

I don't believe that telling gay people the truth about what the Bible teaches is "persecuting" them. That would be like telling us that saying God hates sin is persecuting sinners.

How am I persecuting gays? Do you know me enough to say this?

To know this, you would have to watch me when I am with gay people.

I'm generalizing about SDAs (and other literalist Christians) based on my experiences between them and gay people. You as an individual might not persecute them (and honestly I didn't expect you would be one to do so given your history), but many of your peers do.

The Bible very clearly, and in both the Old and New Testaments, condones the practice of slavery. It even gives specific instructions on how much you can beat your slaves (Exodus 21:20-21, 26-27).

I still maintain that we as a society rejected slavery on social and moral grounds that had virtually nothing to do with scripture (Remember where the Bible belt is geographically with respect to the civil war). The Bible was actually used by slave-owners for centuries in defense of the practice. Why do you reject the Bibles guidelines on slavery but not its guidelines on homosexuality?

[Dr. Shane]

You think homosexual sex is immoral in part because it can spread HIV at a greater rate than heterosexual sex

[Woody]

Quote:

Why do you reject the Bibles guidelines on slavery but not its guidelines on homosexuality?

Praise God ... He loves and accepts us whether we are beating our slaves or doing homosexual acts.

[LifeHiscost]

It's very easy: give the other name. I don't think Stalin killed 40 million, more like 20, but I contributed his name myself. Rather than accusing me of 'evilness' and holocaust denial, why not just try being a fraction more up front about the point you're making,

I'm not denying anything or nitpicking, I'm asking - out of genuine interest - what you're referring to.

[John317]

I don't judge other gay people. I leave that to God. He alone knows the heart. But at the same time, I don't tell them that God is fine with a man living with a man or a woman with a woman. As I understand the Bible, I wouldn't be doing them a favor by telling them something I'm convinced is untrue.

I never would have thought that I could stop or overcome my need and desire for romantic/sexual relationship with men. That was the last thing I wanted and the last thing I could have imagined doing. So I am not really a special case.

My former lover also was baptized with me and gave up living that way. He was as deep into the "gay life" as anyone could possibly be. We were both baptized as a result of a Quiet Hour evangelistic series by L.E. Tucker in San Diego. My lover and I had been planning on getting married. We both went to the gay church in San Diego, called the Metropolitan Community Church, but he was a much more active member than I. He worked as a professional "female impersonator" in shows in LA, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and San Diego. I still love him but now my love leads me to pray for him that God is guiding him on to a life of victory in Christ. The last I heard from him, he was teaching school in Hawaii, and attending the SDA church there. I solicit prayers for my friend. His name is Mike. God will know who you mean.

[fccool]

I think we can argue homosexuality on purely practical and biological terms.

1) In evolutionary-talk ... it's a degenerative path

2) In emotional terms it is repulsive.

There's something in us that would innately make us repulsed by the idea.

3) In psychological terms it's a deviation.

So, what you essentially saying that gay people should be viewed as normal people... while by definition homosexuality is a deviation from "normality".

Sure, we accept many deviations in society... but where's the line by that definition? Necrophiliacs? Zoophiliacs? I mean, why not?

[Igakusei]

Quote:

"If God forms people in their mother's wombs, why give them a crippling "sin" that almost invariably results in their eternal damnation? Why not just accept that different people have different preferences and let them get on with their lives?"

I will give you that each of us is tempted with different temptations. I think we are born with certain dispositions that certain temptations will work more easily. And Satan is no dummy. He knows which temptations will work with us the best.

I used to believe this too. It made a lot of sense to me until I started making friends with gay people.

[Igakusei]

I think we can argue homosexuality on purely practical and biological terms.

1) In evolutionary-talk ... it's a degenerative path

2) In emotional terms it is repulsive.

There's something in us that would innately make us repulsed by the idea.

3) In psychological terms it's a deviation.

So, what you essentially saying that gay people should be viewed as normal people... while by definition homosexuality is a deviation from "normality".

Sure, we accept many deviations in society... but where's the line by that definition? Necrophiliacs? Zoophiliacs? I mean, why not?

Your description of homosexuality as repulsive is completely subjective.

Your other two, that it is evolutionarily degenerative and psychologically deviant, are not supported by evidence. There are literally thousands of recorded instances of routine homosexuality within the animal kingdom. It's as natural as heterosexuality, it just doesn't make babies.

[Woody]

Quote:

I used to believe this too. It made a lot of sense to me until I started making friends with gay people.

I too have made friends with gay people ... well sort of.

I have a "friend" on here by the name of John317. And so I kinda 'understand' gay people.

[Dr. Shane]

The Bible very clearly, and in both the Old and New Testaments, condones the practice of slavery. It even gives specific instructions on how much you can beat your slaves (Exodus 21:20-21, 26-27).

I still maintain that we as a society rejected slavery on social and moral grounds that had virtually nothing to do with scripture (Remember where the Bible belt is geographically with respect to the civil war). The Bible was actually used by slave-owners for centuries in defense of the practice.

[John317]

He does love all people and He accepts us in that sense, but if we continue to practice sin, instead of repenting and turning away from it, we will be lost.

When we say that God accepts us while we are committing homosexual acts, or while we are stealing, or murdering, we leave the impression that we can be saved while continuing to disobey God. I think that's a dangerous view to hold.

It flies in the face of 1 Cor. 6: 9-10 and many other texts as well as passages in the Spirit of prophecy--

1 Cor. 6:9-10

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

However, it is very true that even while we are deep in the practice of sin, God will reach down and speak to our hearts and lead us into His kingdom if we cooperate with Him.