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[Dr. Shane]

No, Shane, it's logical to you because you believe in a God who compels...

[Igakusei]

Show me why you think it was written in the first century BC.

You first.

[LifeHiscost]

Each of us has to examine the evidence and decide for ourselves which faith is most likely to be truth. I believe God will judge us according to the light we have. I may be wrong about that. Certainly a God that will judge people based on knowledge they never had or never had the opportunity to have would not be a fair and just God. Choosing not to believe in God is itself a choice about truth and it is a choice that cannot be *proven* any more than faith in God can be.

Shane, I believe you and I are brothers in Christ. I suggest this to be some of the proof.

"Bring all the tithes (the whole tenth of your income) into the storehouse, that there may be food in My house, and prove Me now by it, says the Lord of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."Malachi 3:10 AMP

I believe this to be further proof.

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

The sun in the sky is not a figment of our imagination, just because at this time there are clouds that obscure our view.

Neither is the Son a figment of our imagination just because there are clouds that obscure the view of Jesus from some.

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily trips us up. And let us run with endurance the race God has set before us."Hebrews 12:1 NLT

God does not ask us to prove Him to others. He only asks us to reveal Him to others. Some choose not to believe the revelation. When there are no others that will believe the revelation, He will appear in the heavens so we can go home.

"This is a revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the events that must soon take place. He sent an angel to present this revelation to his servant John, who faithfully reported everything he saw. This is his report of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.

God blesses the one who reads the words of this prophecy to the church, and he blesses all who listen to its message and obey what it says, for the time is near."Rev 1:1-3 NLT

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."Revelation 22:12 KJV

No one, on or off this forum, need take the reward given to the believers, but all will receive a reward. The desperation of the unbeliever to prove there is no God will vanish with their wishes to do away with Him. How sad, when it only takes a moment of submission to allow whoever would be there, eternal bliss.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."Revelation 22:17 KJV

God blesses!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Show me why you think it was written in the first century BC.

You first.

Since you are the one challenging the 6th c. authorship of Daniel, the burden of proof is on you.

[Igakusei]

Okay, but before I even go to scholarly references let's take a neutral position on the issue.

We have a book that our parents told us was sacred, and it makes some really, really outlandish claims that totally contradict everything we see around us in the world today. God speaking to people in dreams, drowning entire armies, coming down in person to wrestle with people (as a side note, the stories in Genesis surrounding Abraham and his immediate descendants and how they had physically personal interactions with God were very much in keeping with nearby Canaanite religions, and as you'll note they're somewhat unique to the types of supernatural experiences people have later in the Bible), destroying entire cities with fire and brimstone, making axeheads float and altars burn with fire from heaven, etc.

Everything in our experience as humans living in a completely rational world tells us that these stories are fantastic. You assert that it was written around 600 BC because that's when the events happened. I say that's an outlandish claim that defies everything I see and understand about the world.

I also challenged you to find a verse in the bible that could not have been written by someone living in the first century, implying I need evidence that it was inspired by God, and not entirely a product of man. I mean think about it; a text written by an omnipotent God could contain so much to enrich the lives of his people. How about a chapter on Cancer? Mathematics? A chapter like that could have provided thousands of years of fresh insight and discovery. Instead we get a flat Earth, a geocentric universe, pi listed as a round number (centuries after the Egyptians had it estimated to several decimal places), etc. My point is that nothing in there contains knowledge that is outside the realm of human understanding at the time, and much of it in fact was behind human understanding at the time. The authors of the NT and Matthew in particular are notorious for writing the stories in a fashion that fulfills prophecies (or what they thought was prophecy). Given the lack of evidence for a 600 BC Daniel, I'm going to conclude the same there.

[doug yowell]

Okay, but before I even go to scholarly references let's take a neutral position on the issue.

We have a book that our parents told us was sacred, and it makes some really, really outlandish claims that totally contradict everything we see around us in the world today. God speaking to people in dreams, drowning entire armies, coming down in person to wrestle with people (as a side note, the stories in Genesis surrounding Abraham and his immediate descendants and how they had physically personal interactions with God were very much in keeping with nearby Canaanite religions, and as you'll note they're somewhat unique to the types of supernatural experiences people have later in the Bible), destroying entire cities with fire and brimstone, making axeheads float and altars burn with fire from heaven, etc.

Everything in our experience as humans living in a completely rational world tells us that these stories are fantastic. You assert that it was written around 600 BC because that's when the events happened. I say that's an outlandish claim that defies everything I see and understand about the world.

I also challenged you to find a verse in the bible that could not have been written by someone living in the first century, implying I need evidence that it was inspired by God, and not entirely a product of man. I mean think about it; a text written by an omnipotent God could contain so much to enrich the lives of his people. How about a chapter on Cancer? Mathematics? A chapter like that could have provided thousands of years of fresh insight and discovery. Instead we get a flat Earth, a geocentric universe, pi listed as a round number (centuries after the Egyptians had it estimated to several decimal places), etc. My point is that nothing in there contains knowledge that is outside the realm of human understanding at the time, and much of it in fact was behind human understanding at the time. The authors of the NT and Matthew in particular are notorious for writing the stories in a fashion that fulfills prophecies (or what they thought was prophecy). Given the lack of evidence for a 600 BC Daniel, I'm going to conclude the same there.

And we're expected to buy this as a neutral position? The stated presuppositions and misrepresentations are self evident. How bout starting off with a real neutral position?

[Igakusei]

What is a real neutral position?

Gerry starts with the assumption that what Daniel says is true, and it's up to the rest of us to refute it. That's not neutral.

Mine is neutral, and I'll try to explain why:

Pretend I was raised on an island in the middle of the pacific, and wasn't even made aware of the existence of religion until I was an adult.

I'm exposed to the Bible (along with all the other holy books), and I want to find out if it's real or not. Why would I take it at its word? The Bible itself says that all scripture is inspired and profitable for doctrine, but I can only accept that at face value if I'm already assuming that it is so.

Suppose I found a piece of paper in my closet that said "I, Shadrach, recieved in a dream last night that 2,600 prophetic days in the future Muslim hijackers will fly 767s into the twin towers, shaking the foundations of a great nation to the West."

Would you believe that this is inspired prophecy? After all, it says it was written by Shadrach and it predicts a future event with far more precision and clarity than anything in the Bible. If you don't accept it, why not? The default, neutral position is skepticism. What else can it be?

[Gerr]

Quote:

We have a book that our parents told us was sacred, and it makes some really, really outlandish claims that totally contradict everything we see around us in the world today. God speaking to people in dreams

ESV | Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,

Why?

"3Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ac 9:3–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

ESV | Mt 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.

ESV | Da 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. 10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

[Igakusei]

Quote:

We have a book that our parents told us was sacred, and it makes some really, really outlandish claims that totally contradict everything we see around us in the world today. God speaking to people in dreams

ESV | Heb 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,

Why?

"3Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ac 9:3–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

ESV | Mt 28:2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men.

ESV | Da 7:9 “As I looked, thrones were placed, and the Ancient of Days took his seat; his clothing was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his throne was fiery flames; its wheels were burning fire. 10 A stream of fire issued and came out from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened.

"These last days...." 2000 years ago? You've done nothing but list several more outlandish claims. Can you explain how those verses contain the wisdom or knowledge of an omniscient God?

[skyblue888]

The Bible is its own Interpreter and it contains more than enough evidence that God is Its Author. Personally I came to that understanding by spending many hours comparing Scripture with Scripture.

In the early 70's I began searching for answers. I was raised within the Catholic influence. It permeated just about every aspect of my life but never became a devoted catholic. When I began my search for answers, I did not even think of the Bible as a book that might offer some answers and yet I was hungering and thirsting for the knowledge of God. I did not know where to turn until I stumbled upon a book written by a Buddhist. I read several books by this author. His "nom de plume" was Rampa. This went on for about a year. I devoured one book after another. I loved his style of writing. It was easy to read and very exciting and "enlightening" to me at the time. I read a whole lot about karma, aura, third eye, astral voyages, nirvana, etc etc. It was all so interesting. For a while I thought I had found the answers to the questions that had troubled me so much but as strange as it seemed to me, I still felt an emptiness inside. I discovered later that the reason why I was feeling this way was because I had not yet found the truth(s) which alone could satisfy the longings of my heart.

One day, that same year, walking along a busy street, I spotted a small piece of paper laying on the ground. I heard like a still small voice speaking to me, Pick it up. I picked it up, opened it, and began reading. It was a hand-written note which said, "If you want to know the truth about Jesus Christ, don't ask men. Ask God."

I kept thinking about this note all day. Finally, I said to myself, What have I to lose? I kept asking God to show me the truth about Jesus Christ. Days later a book which was on display at a Bible Society caught my attention. It was about planet earth and the prophecies of the Bible. To make a long story short, that year I purchased at least 75 books from that Bible Society. I read every book hungering and thirsting for more truth. And yet after all this I still felt an emptiness even though that year I also read the Bible from cover to cover. In the summer of 1976, one sunday morning, I got up late, and decided to turn the tv on. I was immediately glued to the screen. This man was talking about the second coming of Christ in a way that I had never heard before going from one passage of Scripture to another. Right away I heard that still small voice telling me to get in touch with these people. I had no clue who this man was. Days later I began reading a book titled The Great Controversy. I just couldn't put it down. For the first time I knew that my answers were being answered. It is hard to describe what happened ever since I read this book and the many other books written by the same author. This was the turning point of my life. E.G. White's writings made the Word of God come alive for me. I can honestly say that from the day I began reading her writings, it went from light to a greater light. But the one truth that was impressed upon my soul above any other is that not one who trusts in the merits of Christ will be left to perish, that though millions who need to be healed will reject His offered mercy, none will ever perish while they trust in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour.

Not one who trusts in the merits of the blood shed for us upon Calvary's cross will be left to perish. (Rom.3:25).

sky

[Gail]

Awesome testimony! I think I should start handwriting little notes and leaving them places...

sky, you must include more of these personal experiences in your writing here! They bear witness to how the Holy Spirit leads a person to reconcilation to God.

[skyblue888]

You know Gail, I used to do this a lot, leaving little notes just about everywhere.

Thanks for your comment.

sky :)

[Dr. Shane]

I was raised on an island in the middle of the pacific, and wasn't even made aware of the existence of religion until I was an adult.

[doug yowell]

Okay, but before I even go to scholarly references let's take a neutral position on the issue.

We have a book that our parents told us was sacred, and it makes some really, really outlandish claims that totally contradict everything we see around us in the world today. Everything in our experience as humans living in a completely rational world tells us that these stories are fantastic. You assert that it was written around 600 BC because that's when the events happened. I say that's an outlandish claim that defies everything I see and understand about the world.

Which part of the book defies the accuracy in which human thinking and behavior is portrayed? Which part can be proven to be archeologically untrue? What outside evidence indicates that the history of the Jewish people is a monstrous fabrication of Semitic creation? What neutral evidence can be examined that would prove that the earliest biblical manuscripts were not copies of previous writings but rather created on the spot and accepted without complaint by all of Judaism? If other significant parts of the Bible are accepted as true why then wouldn't the miracle parts be open to the possibility of also being true? Why is it neutral to dismiss them out of hand?

[Igakusei]

You guys have been listening to too many sermons by Christian apologists (as you would expect).

Shane: The island in the pacific was an obvious hypothetical scenario, but thanks for missing the point (again).

Your claim about the Dead Sea Scrolls is often repeated from the pulpit, but it's also a lie.

Quote:

The significance of the scrolls relates in a large part to the field of textual criticism and how accurately the Bible has been transcribed over time. Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to 10th century CE such as the Aleppo Codex. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back a millennium to the 2nd century BCE. Before this discovery, the earliest extant manuscripts of the Old Testament were in Greek in manuscripts such as Codex Vaticanus Graecus 1209 and Codex Sinaiticus.

According to The Oxford Companion to Archaeology:

The biblical manuscripts from Qumran, which include at least fragments from every book of the Old Testament, except perhaps for the Book of Esther, provide a far older cross section of scriptural tradition than that available to scholars before. While some of the Qumran biblical manuscripts are nearly identical to the Masoretic, or traditional, Hebrew text of the Old Testament, some manuscripts of the books of Exodus and Samuel found in Cave Four exhibit dramatic differences in both language and content. In their astonishing range of textual variants, the Qumran biblical discoveries have prompted scholars to reconsider the once-accepted theories of the development of the modern biblical text from only three manuscript families: of the Masoretic text, of the Hebrew original of the Septuagint, and of the Samaritan Pentateuch. It is now becoming increasingly clear that the Old Testament scripture was extremely fluid until its canonization around A.D. 100.[27]

About 35% of the DSS biblical manuscripts belong to the Masoretic tradition (MT), 5% to the Septuagint family, and 5% to the Samaritan, with the remainder unaligned. The non-aligned fall into two categories, those inconsistent in agreeing with other known types, and those that diverge significantly from all other known readings. The DSS thus form a significant witness to the mutability of biblical texts at this period.[28] The sectarian texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls, most of which were previously unknown, offer new light on one form of Judaism practiced during the Second Temple period.

Doug: you also have gross misconceptions about what scholars believe about the Bible. I'd suggest reading some books that don't agree with your viewpoint in order to flesh your knowledge base out a little bit. I mean, at least familiarize yourself with the other guys are saying.

[phkrause]

You guys have been listening to too many sermons by Christian apologists (as you would expect).

I haven't listen to any Christian apologists. The Christian pastors I listen to have nothing to apologize for. They love the Lord.

[Igakusei]

That's not what apologist means. Did you stop reading there?

[Gerr]

Quote:

"These last days...." 2000 years ago? You've done nothing but list several more outlandish claims. Can you explain how those verses contain the wisdom or knowledge of an omniscient God?"

I was trying to show you why God had to resort to other methods of communication because it was/is impossible for sinful man to be in the presence of a holy God and still live.

ESV | Is 59:1 Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save, or his ear dull, that it cannot hear; 2 but your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.

ESV | Dt 9:3 Know therefore today that he who goes over before you as a consuming fire is the LORD your God.

[Igakusei]

Ah, I see. So the patriarchs, prophets, and high priests were simply less sinful than us, and that's how they were able to endure the immediate presence (and even physical touch) of God without dying?

Anyway, beyond that I'm still looking for verses in the Bible that demonstrate evidence of a divine wisdom. When I said "could not have been written by a person in the first century," that's what I meant to imply. Prophecy tends not to count, since in many cases it is highly vague and understood very differently by different denominations. In cases where it is not so vague (Daniel 2, 7, and 8 for example) there is significant debate over when it was written, and no evidence that I'm aware of that it was written earlier other than the fact that it says so itself.

[Gerr]

Thank you for that testimony. It brought tears to my eyes.

[Gerr]

None of the prophets or the priests ever stood in the presence of God in His full glory.

There is NOTHING vague about the succession of 4 world empires. Nothing vague about the prophecy about Tyre. Nothing vague about the prophecy that Jesus is coming again. Nothing vague about the prophecy of a coming Sunday law. Croatia enacted one last year. The EC is currently gathering 1 million signatures before they would act on a proposed Sunday law. It is just a matter of time before the same clamor for a Sunday law comes to the USA.

[phkrause]

That's not what apologist means. Did you stop reading there?

Did not stop reading there. Here's a diffinition(sp) from the web: Apologist, any of the Christian writers, primarily in the 2nd century, who attempted to provide a defense of Christianity and criticisms of Greco-Roman culture. I'll say it again, I know of no christian pastors that apologize or as the bold type says "attempt to provide a defense" for christianity. If someone needs a defense, to me they are not someone I want any dealings with. I don't need to defend myself to follow Jesus Christ, whatever its called.

[Sonny]

Quite the speculation there.

[Igakusei]

None of the prophets or the priests ever stood in the presence of God in His full glory.

There is NOTHING vague about the succession of 4 world empires. Nothing vague about the prophecy about Tyre. Nothing vague about the prophecy that Jesus is coming again. Nothing vague about the prophecy of a coming Sunday law. Croatia enacted one last year. The EC is currently gathering 1 million signatures before they would act on a proposed Sunday law. It is just a matter of time before the same clamor for a Sunday law comes to the USA.

Half of your four prophecies haven't happened, so that's hardly evidence for their validity. People have been clamoring about the Sunday law thing for at least a century. The Croatian law sounds a lot more like our own blue laws and a lot less like what EGW predicted. It was amusing to see the raw sensationalism flowing all over the front pages of every presenttruth/lastdayevents/etc type website though.

I even mentioned Daniel under "not vague," so I don't know why you felt like bringing that up again.

[Sonny]

Igakusei, I don't know why these guys are wasting their time. You apparently want others to share in your unbelief.