Modesty - what do you guys think?

[GreatLakesGramma]

Do you guys agree with this video? If so, does it change as you get older? Or is it equally a problem all your lives? A friend of mine posted this on Facebook.

[Dr. Rich]

GLG, This is great! I shared it with all of my family and friends. thank you!

[SivartM]

I saw that video. I think that is someone feels that way just walking through campus, they have a serious problem, and making people dress differently isn't going to help. You should not have to shut out the world whenever you see attractive people. It sounds like people who feel that way think that God is going to smite them for simply feeling, as if acknowledging that they find someone attractive makes them a lustful sex-addict, when in reality they act like sex-addicts anyway. People who simply let feelings come and go without guilt trips usually seem to have far fewer problems.

So, I'm all for modesty, but I'm also for emotional health and personal responsibility. When males have that much trouble controlling themselves and then ask females to cover themselves up more to make up for their problems, I think they are missing the point by far.

When I see a title like, "What Guys Think About Modesty," I get a bit angry, because that is not what I think about modesty. I don't have any problems walking across my campus, and I don't freak out if I see someone's skin, and I don't try to get people to change their clothes so that I don't hate myself.

[Nan]

I found it a totally annoying clip....not necessarily in what it is saying, but how it is presented. The voices are too confusing.....I cannot answer for how well it correlates with the male experience of course.

I like what Sivart says.

[ClubV12]

SivartM, did we watch the same video? I guess not.

It appears your conscience is so seared from seeing immodestly clothed campus women day in and day out you are unable to grasp the concept.

You dismiss men who have a problem (99% of men) with lust after seeing immodestly dressed women as "sex-addicts". I resent that implication and I'm calling you on it. I had to double check to see if you were a man or a woman, because you are NOT normal, dudette. Seeing campus women bearing skin day after day is not normal in society, while it may be normal on a CAMPUS, that doesn't make it right and that doesn't make it normal.

Watch the video again, please, try to grasp the concepts presented. If you, as a man, don't get it, then feel free to go naked on campus and ask the ladies to do the same. Trust me, the campus police WILL draw the line somewhere. Where will you draw the line, as a christian?

I don't got to college, I got to church, where I see plenty of bare skin and immodest dress. I don't like it, it's distracting, I am normal. Ladies please seriously consider the value of this video. If you must bare your skin, go to college, some guys there are so messed up they won't care.

[SivartM]

It appears your conscience is so seared from seeing immodestly clothed campus women day in and day out you are unable to grasp the concept.

[ClubV12]

"Do you actually have to stare at the sidewalk and recite verses to keep yourself from noticing attractive women? Do you think that is normal?"

It's safe to say "attractive women" is a euphemism for an immodestly dressed woman. Because the term "immodest" means different things to different people, we need special counsel to arrive at a meaning applicable to christians. And not just "christians", christians serious about seeking a closer walk with Jesus. Such counsel can be found in the bible and in the writings of Ellen White. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide as you arrive at your own personal definition.

No, it is not normal, it is not normal for most men to be seeking a closer walk with Jesus to the point where they have to "pluck out an eye" to avoid being offended.

To avoid being tempted to think impure thoughts. I thank God such men walk the sidewalk and I thank God that this sound practicle advice is offered. I thank God that it has been brought not only to my attention but to the attention of other men who may read this thread. Praise God!

Sex is everywhere around us, constantly on display. It has been and remains one of the most powerful tools the evil one has to use against men. These issues are very serious. Sin begins with a thought. For a man, what we see is a potent trigger to more insidious thought.

[SivartM]

Sex is just a thing. It should not be controlling people's lives, and if someone is spending that much time miserably trying to avoid confronting it, then it is controlling their life, and that's the opposite of what they are going for, I think. Your feelings are just feelings. You aren't going to be smitten for them. Instead of constantly worrying about accidentally thinking about sex, why can't people just let themselves come to terms with their feelings, and not have to blame their genetics for making them such depraved souls?

[Amelia]

*GP

Covering up women to keep mens eyes from wandering. Hummmmmm seems another religion is already doing this.

[Dr. Shane]

The idea that women need to "serve" men (the video's word) by covering all of their skin sounds quite similar to the idea that women are raped because they "dress like [censored]".

Actually, I think women "serve" men by showing us all they can. That is what most men want to see. Most men want to see the curves on a woman's breasts, hips and buttocks. Years ago, a man would have to pay for a woman to show him such curves, today a man can just sit on a bench in a shopping mall and enjoy the view gratis.

Women cheapen themselves when they dress like tramps. Trashy-dressed women get less respect. Men will treat them like they treat cattle or other farm animals. A woman that dresses modestly is much more likely to be treated with respect. Men are more likely to open a door for a modestly-dressed woman and more like to greet her kindly.

In Mexico right now the drug cartels are kidnapping, raping and forcing a lot of women into prostitution. Guess who they are targeting? If you guess the trashy-dressed women you are right. The Mexican government, in cooperation with the media, are advising all women to dress modestly. They do not want them wearing tight clothing or showing cleavage. Hmmm, does the Mexican government know something we don't know?

[ClubV12]

"Sex is just a thing. It should not be controlling people's lives,...."

It is THE major controlling factor in this world. It was fundamental to the destruction of Sodom. It is everywhere. It was fundamental to the death of John the Baptist. It has brought down kings and kingdoms. It caused Israel to fail. The bible is filled with warning after warning concerning it. Warnings in the most pronounced, clear and plain way of speaking. "Sex sells", EVERYONE in marketing understands this most basic of concepts.

"Your feelings are just feelings. You aren't going to be smitten for them."

Where did you get that idea? It's certainly not biblical! Covet, thats a feeling, it's also a sin. The penalty IS death for your "feelings". The solution is accepting that reality, and accepting Jesus to cover that sin. Lust is also a feeling. The bible is clear you don't have to physically sleep with a woman to have slept with a woman. The resulting "sin" is the same, whether physcial or mental, sin is sin.

Controlling your thoughts and FEELINGS is the greatest test mankind will face. It could be anything, appetite for instance. Sin begins in the mind. We LIKE sin and the resultant "good feelings" (fleeting though they be) that comes with it. Eve felt pretty good taking the bite out of the apple, she wasn't struck dead. She felt empowered, giddy, it was, at first, a wonderful feeling! Men LIKE to see immodestly dressed "attractive women", we see it enough, we become callous to it, we want to see MORE of it. Because we like the way it makes us feel.

[Dr. Shane]

"Sex is just a thing. It should not be controlling people's lives,...."

It is THE major controlling factor in this world.

Yes, sex is one of our basic instincts. Our basic instincts are for food(nutrition), shelter(protection from the elements), companionship(friendship and acceptance by others), worship(spirituality) and sex.

I am not one that believes that looking at an attractive woman and appreciating her beauty is the same as lusting. I think lusting implies coveting. Lusting is wanting to have sex with the woman one is gazing at. I can look a pretty women without coveting them just like I can look at a nice Corvette or Viper without coveting it. That said, every time I see an attractive woman I repeat the Psalm that says "be happy with the wife of your youth" and then I say a quick prayer of gratitude for the wife God has given me.

[SivartM]

If men are misogynists, that's their fault, not the fault of the women they take advantage of. If a woman doesn't meet someone's modesty standard and she is raped, then it's basically her fault for seducing that helpless man. Even if all women dressed modestly, no matter how modestly they dressed, misogynists would still be misogynists. A rapist isn't going to suddenly stop raping women because they change their clothes.

[Tom Wetmore]

A few random thoughts in reaction to the video...

No, not all men are so obsessed with naked parts of the body that they cannot look a woman in the eye and pass her by.

Modesty, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder... and not so much the wardrobe of the beheld.

It reminds me of the "bruised and bleeding" Pharisees, so called because in order to avoid seeing a woman, they walked down the street with their eyes closed, or looking so low they couldn't see where they were going and ran into things fell in the ditch, etc. And that was in a time of great modesty by women wearing close to a burqa.

It would seem the video mandate could be best satisfied by burqas for all the women...

But in burqa lands, complete covering still does not enable men to treat and see women with respect.

The problem and the solution is in the heart of a man, not the degree of covering of a woman.

Can a blind man lust? You betcha!

[John317]

Even if a woman walked nude down the street at night and into a dark alley, it wouldn't excuse the rapist. However, it would show very poor judgment and a complete misreading of human nature. Under those circumstances, could anyone honestly say that she would bear no responsibility?

[ClubV12]

Don't be a stumbling block to others. Women DO have a responsibility toward God in how they dress because of the impact such dress can (and does) have on men.

We have much counsel on appropriate dress, find a balance within that counsel. Are you looking at the women of the world, in print, TV, in movies, magazines, videos, news reports and dressing "more modestly than them" and thinking that is enough? It is not, it is what the world considers "normal". God has an entirely different standard.

"We" have become so inundated with worldly fashion (slaves to it) and what is put forth as appropriate dress we have lost our true sense of modesty. Pointing to "fanatical" dress (covered completly or in a tiny bikini) does not offer a realistic solution and further serves it's purpose to sear the conscience. Thats what fanaticism does, where ever you find it, it offers a convienent way to avoid individual responsibility. Using it as your guide, you will find some "middle ground" that still falls short of God's plan. The ONLY plan you can compare yourself to. In eating, drinking, dress, what you drive, how you have fun, how you live your life. Not by what the world accepts as "normal" or as "fanatical", but by God's standard alone.

It is a given, when you truly find God's plan, the world WILL see you as "fanatical".

[John317]

Yes, I agree with it. I know that it's true for most guys between about 15 and their 40s, and, yes, even long after that.

There's nothing wrong in noticing that a girl or woman is beautiful and even sexy, but most guys will go beyond that point and wish in their heart that they could see more and do more.

I believe church should be a place where women are not interested in showing off their bodies but are interested in only drawing attention to God.

I have three daughters, and while the eldest (age 30) dresses modestly, my younger ones, 22 and 18, dress for the guys. I have sometimes had to tell them to go back to their rooms and put something else on, and I tell them what guys are thinking of when they look at females who are dressed that way. Their mother is from Mexico, and as people who know Mexicans realize, Mexican mothers are very direct to their daughters when it comes to discussing sex.

Some men will tell you that they are not like this, and they might not be, but a woman can't dress for the guy who has no problem with lust, because such a guy is in the minority. In church, women need to dress for the typical guy, and the typical guy-- let's be honest and stop kidding ourselves-- is going to have some issues with lust, especially when seeing part of a breast, and other parts of a pretty woman's body in tight-fitting clothes.

Take this from someone who knows the male animal very well.

[ClubV12]

Ladies, you have a sense of modesty that can and should be cultivated. While that little voice may have grown more and more silent over time, it is still there. You KNOW when your appearance, your dress, just doesn't "feel right". You can sense when you are dressing to be "sexy", even a little bit sexy. Listen to that voice, help it grow louder, please. As a man, I need all the help I can get to stay focused on Christ.

Have you ever noticed a speaker with a flashy tie? Or tie clasp? Or a nice watch? Or a woman speaker with some unusual article of clothing that draws the eye? Perhaps a nice lapel pin? Not to mention so immodestly dressed lady speaker! Then you find yourself thinking about that item and not thinking about what the speaker is saying? What if you are witnessing to someone and they find themselves drawn to some piece of your clothing or embellishment? Are they focused on what you are saying or distracted by what you are wearing?

This isn't about flashy ties, tie clips, watches, pins and brooches, cleavage and on and on. It's about being a representative of Jesus. When He dwells in your heart, your dress will reflect it. Your inner beauty will be on display. We should not dress so that we draw attention to ourselves, from either super modest to short short skirt! Nor should we follow every fashion that comes along.

Seek and you find that balance for our day, time, age appropriate, men or women.

[Bravus]

I watched the first couple of minutes and couldn't stand the smarmy delivery and saccharine, manipulative music any longer. That and the comments have given me enough of the gist anyway, I think.

Modesty is a good thing, and I encourage my daughters to dress modestly. That is the young woman's responsibility to herself and to God.

But a man's responsibility is to control his own thoughts. Noticing that someone is attractive is not sin: dwelling, obsessing and lusting is. And that's a choice. How dare men place the blame for their own poor choices on women?!

This video, and many of the responses here, are the same old nonsense of men pretending they are powerless so that they can project their lusts out into the workld and onto others, rather than taking responsibility for them.

It's a sickness and it bears the fruit of sickness. SivartM made the same point I'm making about men's personal responsibility, and got this response:

Quote:

I had to double check to see if you were a man or a woman, because you are NOT normal, dudette.

Is that evidence of a healthy attitude to sex and sexuality?

[John317]

Modesty is a good thing, and I encourage my daughters to dress modestly. That is the young woman's responsibility to herself and to God.

They also have a responsibility not to flaunt their bodies before men, which they do when they show off their breasts, etc. That is completely unnecessary, and it's the same as a man walking around with tight pants that show the shape of his sex organ.

Women like to do it-- and many even feel they MUST do it--- because our Western culture encourages them to dress that way, but it is wrong.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

I write with a distressed heart that the women in this age, both married and unmarried, too frequently do not maintain the reserve that is necessary. They act like coquettes. They encourage the attentions of single and married men, and those who are weak in moral power will be ensnared. These things, if allowed, deaden the moral senses and blind the mind so that crime does not appear sinful.

332

Thoughts are awakened that would not have been if woman had kept her place in all modesty and sobriety. She may have had no unlawful purpose or motive herself, but she has given encouragement to men who are tempted, and who need all the help they can get from those associated with them. By being circumspect, reserved, taking no liberties, receiving no unwarrantable attentions, but preserving a high moral tone and becoming dignity, much evil might be avoided. {AH 331.3}

I have long been designing to speak to my sisters and tell them that, from what the Lord has been pleased to show me from time to time, there is a great fault among them. They are not careful to abstain from all appearance of evil. They are not all circumspect in their deportment, as becometh women professing godliness. Their words are not as select and well chosen as those of women who have received the grace of God should be. They are too familiar with their brethren. They linger around them, incline toward them, and seem to choose their society. They are highly gratified with their attention. {AH 332.1}

Originally Posted By: Bravus

But a man's responsibility is to control his own thoughts. Noticing that someone is attractive is not sin: dwelling, obsessing and lusting is. And that's a choice. How dare men place the blame for their own poor choices on women?!

Yes, men do have a responsibility to control their own thoughts, but we also have a sacred responsibility to one another not to put temptations out in front of people. It is often done on purpose. Some people enjoy being desired and having their bodies admired, even in church. Their thoughts and attentions are not in the right place, and Satan uses them to get others to think wrong thoughts.

1 Tim. 2:8-10

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; [9] likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10] but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

1 Thess. 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 Cor. 10:8

Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1 Cor. 10:32

Give none offence [i.e., don't cause others to sin], neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Romans 15:2-3

Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. [3] For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

Romans 13:10

Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

[John317]

If men are misogynists, that's their fault, not the fault of the women they take advantage of.

This is not about men who hate women, nor is it about rape. It's simply about how women's clothing and dress affect how men think about them. It's a fact of life, and arguing against it or denying it is like arguing against the lightening.

The Bible clearly gives us the principles by which to measure when women's dress in church is not right. If we respect and believe God's word, we will want to do what God has revealed to us. We have responsibilites to each other in church and can't only dress to please ourselves but must consider also how our appearance affects others. This is especially true of women's influence on men.

1 Tim. 2:8-10

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling; [9] likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, [10] but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

[LifeHiscost]

Do you guys agree with this video? If so, does it change as you get older? Or is it equally a problem all your lives? A friend of mine posted this on Facebook.

1. Do I agree with this video? I agree that the person speaking has an ongoing problem in his response to the devil's temptations to lust. I also believe his addressing the problem he feels exists among other men is not misplaced, though it does seem he's more or less included all other men in the same boat and I think that is selling the Lord short on His power to deliver some from a highly predominant reality.

Two texts that reveal Jesus and Paul both recognized the problem was a serious one, certainly among the male population if not the female.

"But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart."Matthew 5:28 NLT

"But if they can’t control themselves, they should go ahead and marry. It’s better to marry than to burn with lust."1 Corinthians 7:9 NLT

Paul's use of the word "they", seems to indicate the problem doesn't just exist with the male gender

However just talking about the problem without suggesting the solution is like reading pornography, all the while saying, tsk, tsk, tsk.

Many years ago, I arrived at a helpful question when I was tempted that served me better in conquering the tricks of the mind, than anything else I can think of even to this day.

The question, "Is that what I really want?"

Of course if one hasn't yielded their heart to Jesus the answer would be yes. But desiring to do what Jesus' Spirit convicted one was best, made it easy to get into the habit of turning away from temptation as soon as it was recognized. It also helped to think on what damage, especially spiritual, would acrue when giving in to what one knew was wrong. It's all part of maturing while the old man of sin is still alive.

God blesses!

[ClubV12]

LifeHisCost says,

"However just talking about the problem without suggesting the solution is like reading pornography, all the while saying, tsk, tsk, tsk."

I think the guidelines in the bible and from EGW are "specific enough". In EGW's time dress was unhealthful, that was a primary issue she had to deal with. Very long and heavy skirts/dresses swept up the filth in the street. The heavy clothing hanging from the hips rather than the shoulders was unheathful as well. Hoop skirts, popular in her time, were revealing under certain circumstances. These were the fashions of her day.

In our time, healthful dress is not as big an issue, but modesty, fashion, expensive clothes (men or women) remain a problem. EGW lays out specific details on the length of appropriate dress for ladies. But if we don't understand BASIC dress principles we will surely reject her counsel on the length of a skirt or dress. Which should reach or come below the knee, by the way.

If you insist on specific guidelines,,, consider this. EGW says it's OK for women to wear pants, UNDER THEIR SKIRT! Is that specific enough? Does that counsel apply today? Why not? The modern fashion certainly accepts women wearing pants and such. But modern fashion, whatever it is, is NOT our guideline! Let every woman or man be convinced in his/her own heart what modesty is for our day and age.

I think the video layed out the case very well, without getting to specific on exactly what you should wear. Let the Holy Spirit be your guide and consider carefully the counsel of the prophet.

Duet. 22:5. 'The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man...for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord.'

[CoAspen]

I'll go with Sivart, he is on the right path. Men continue to make excuses for themselves and blame women, but are actually blaming God, remember Adam...it was that women you gave me!! That started the whole process of the blame game. Time for men to show some back bone and take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.

Modesty is one thing, but some of these comments are not about it at all!

[CoAspen]

lust |ləst|

noun

very strong sexual desire

• [in sing. ] a passionate desire for something

From Wiki:

Etymology

The word lust is phonetically similar to the ancient Roman lustrum, which literally meant "purification". This was the five-year cycle time for the ritual expiation of "sins" called the lustration as practiced in ancient Greek and Roman cultures. Sexual intercourse was one of a list of sins requiring lustration.[2]

The Seven Deadly Sins, written during the 5th century is a similar list of sins requiring expiation or forgiveness. These doctrines forbade even thoughts and desires for fornicatio (fornication), later generalized as luxuria (lust/lechery).[3][4][5] The concept also was progressively embodied in debates about mandatory Clerical celibacy beginning in the 1st through 5th centuries and following. For example, Henry Charles Lea states that "Sixtus III barely admits that married persons can obtain eternal life" in his "Sacerdotal History of Christian Celibacy" (p. 45). He also states, "Siricius and Innocent I ransacked the Gospels for texts of more than doubtful application with which to support the innovation <of required celibacy>". (p. 53)

However, in the 11th to 15th centuries the northern European usage of the verb still meant simply "to please, delight;" or "pleasure". A related form "lusty", originally meant "joyful, merry" or "full of healthy vigor". See [1].

The word "lust" began being used in the 16th century in the Protestant Reformation's early non-Latin Bible translations. This is despite the fact that the original Koine Greek Bible has no single word that is uniquely translated as heterosexual lust. q.v.

Today, the meaning of the word still has differing meanings as shown in the Merriam-Webster definition. Lust: 1. a: pleasure, delight b: personal inclination: wish 2. intense or unbridled sexual desire: lasciviousness 3. a: intense longing: craving <a lust to succeed> b: enthusiasm, eagerness <admired his lust for life>. See [2]

Ever wonder why 'lust' is applied to men and not to women? Tis not gender specific. Men defend themselves of this issue by essentially blaming the women for their own lack of self control.