Modesty - what do you guys think?

[Gerr]

I would say that "how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility" ... is a true statement.

And that you have some responsibility as to how others respond to what you do is a false statement?

ESV | Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I would say that "how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility" ... is a true statement.

And that you have some responsibility as to how others respond to what you do is a false statement?

ESV | Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

I can't cause you to sin. I can 'encourage' or promote it. But a sin has to be a decision and purposeful conscious act that comes from your heart and mind. If I force you to go against your will ... it is not you doing it. God wants our hearts and minds. He is more concerned with that than our works or acts.

[cricket]

GP

Quick question: Are the men of this world who desire women to *help* them by dressing modestly actually asking out/dating/courting/etc women who do dress modestly? Is there ANY incentive at all (worldly incentive) for women to dress modestly?

I ask, because in my experience and in the experience of the young people I know--the girls who dress modestly are the ones who are home on the weekends and don't have dates.

If the women *help* the men out, will they reciprocate and *help* the women out?

[Woody]

Quick question: Are the men of this world who desire women to *help* them by dressing modestly actually asking out/dating/courting/etc women who do dress modestly?

NO

Is there ANY incentive at all (worldly incentive) for women to dress modestly?

NO

I ask, because in my experience and in the experience of the young people I know--the girls who dress modestly are the ones who are home on the weekends and don't have dates.

TRUE

If the women *help* the men out, will they reciprocate and *help* the women out?

Oh PLEASE ... don't make us do that.

[Bravus]

False dichotomies all over the place here, as with so many issues.

Saying 'a man should be responsible for his own thoughts and actions' is *not* mutually exclusive to saying 'a women should be responsible for the way she dresses'. Both can be - and are - true.

The point is, the man should put his energy into the thing that's his responsibility, and let the woman take care of her responsibilities.

The whole thing some of us are objecting to is men attempting to control women. That's not ethically appropriate and doesn't work. (I'm not talking about fathers helping to teach their daughters, I'm talking about adults.)

But I don't think *anyone* here is saying 'scanty is best'. It's purely a difference of emphasis being blown up into a difference of opinion.

[ClubV12]

"...the girls who dress modestly are the ones who are home on the weekends and don't have dates."

I don't see a problem with that statement, man or woman. Seriously... Is dating all there is to life? If the only way to achieve a date is to dress immodestly, then by default, THAT speaks volumes about about the whole dating issue.

[cricket]

Well, I do see a problem with it, because we are designed to be social creatures. And without socialization, we will not thrive.

And yep, there is a HUGE problem with the dating issue.

[Gerr]

GP

Quick question: Are the men of this world who desire women to *help* them by dressing modestly actually asking out/dating/courting/etc women who do dress modestly? Is there ANY incentive at all (worldly incentive) for women to dress modestly?

Yes. I avoided asking girls out who I thought were not modest in their attire. I could be wrong, but I believe that in general how a person presents him/herself is index to the heart.

[Gerr]

ESV | Mt 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

I can't cause you to sin. I can 'encourage' or promote it. But a sin has to be a decision and purposeful conscious act that comes from your heart and mind. If I force you to go against your will ... it is not you doing it. God wants our hearts and minds. He is more concerned with that than our works or acts.

So you don't care whether you are encouraging or promoting someone else to sin?

[ClubV12]

There are plenty of social opportunities without having to dress immodestly to "score" a date. Especially as it concerns what the world's idea of a "date" is all about.

Looking at the numbers, 50% of marriages result in divorce, I'm saying there is a serious problem with this dating concept. Maybe I'm drawing the wrong conclusion and the divorce rate has nothing to do with "dating"?

Then again, I think there is a direct correlation!

As to causing sin:

"Thou shalt not surely die." And Eve ate... no one forced her to.

[Woody]

There are plenty of social opportunities without having to dress immodestly to "score" a date. Especially as it concerns what the world's idea of a "date" is all about.

Looking at the numbers, 50% of marriages result in divorce, I'm saying there is a serious problem with this dating concept. Maybe I'm drawing the wrong conclusion and the divorce rate has nothing to do with "dating"?

Then again, I think there is a direct correlation!

As to causing sin:

"Thou shalt not surely die." And Eve ate... no one forced her to.

Are you suggeting that the good looking well dressed women should not marry? OR if not ... whom should they marry in order to get the divorce rate lower?

[Woody]

Quote:

no one forced her to.

That I agree with

[ClubV12]

"Are you suggeting that the good looking well dressed women should not marry?"

Well now, that does cut right to the chase!

OK, lets open that can of worms. WHY should she marry? WHAT is the purpose of marriage? What did Paul have to say about marriage? What did EGW have to say about it?

Paul gave specific guidelines as to some should marry and some should not. And the "not" was preferred! Ellen White gives similiar counsel, specifically for these days, modern times. It is preferred you DON'T marry, at all, ever, today! Under what circumstances, today, would one then contemplate marriage? Paul lays out his idea on the subject, I'm sure most are familiar with it.

Far less people are familiar with EGW's counsel on it. The primary purpose is to work together, as a team, to further the Lords work. "Dating" is not highly regarded as a necessary component of life. Entering into a courtship is what "dating" is all about. How is this courtship accomplished? There are specific guidelines, none of them include "dating" as we have come to understand the meaning of the word.

I know, I know,,, these are hard saying's, who can hear them? The truth can be brutal, but it is there to protect us from ourselves, from the bitter taste of divorce in many instances.

[Gerr]

There are plenty of social opportunities without having to dress immodestly to "score" a date. Especially as it concerns what the world's idea of a "date" is all about.

I have heard that the latest in some of the dating is a "hook-up." So if a man is looking for just a "hook-up", he will likely choose the most provocatively dressed woman. But if he is looking for a potential life-time partner, I doubt that he will ask such a woman for a date.

[Woody]

Whether there is dating or not ... there wil be divorce. It's a matter of life and death. And we seem to feast on it.

[ClubV12]

That is the point Woody, "we", the world and the church, feast on it. May I propose the idea that it is because we have not followed God's counsel in regards to dating and marriage?

The bible is filled with examples of unhappy marriage, UNAUTHORIZED marriage. David comes to mind, not to mention Samson (that rascal of immorality).

There are also wonderful examples of excellent marriage, so there is "hope"!

[Woody]

Quote:

there is "hope

I'm afraid not :(

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha,,, yeah. It looks pretty bleak on the horizon for marriage, not to mention dating and where that leads.

[Woody]

do U believe in arranged marriages or what?

[Woody]

GP

Quick question: Are the men of this world who desire women to *help* them by dressing modestly actually asking out/dating/courting/etc women who do dress modestly? Is there ANY incentive at all (worldly incentive) for women to dress modestly?

I ask, because in my experience and in the experience of the young people I know--the girls who dress modestly are the ones who are home on the weekends and don't have dates.

If the women *help* the men out, will they reciprocate and *help* the women out?

Let me confess and see if I am in error here -

When watching "The Wheel" ... and all other things are equal ... I cheer for the woman who is the most thin and well shaped with nice curves and does not hide them. Is that wrong of me? After all ... my Daddy told me I could look but not touch.

[ClubV12]

"do U believe in arranged marriages or what?"

Hmmm, that's a tough one, I can see some wisdom in it, but it is to easily abused. I think better, is the need for serious counsel from those with experience and maturity on the subject. Like parents for one, but not exclusively.

I've reviewed the guidlines on dating and marriage as to what EGW has to say and I see some very good wisdom there. It to, like all her writings, is consistent with biblical principles.

Being a single guy for well over a decade, I've considered whether marriage might (once again) be in my future. I think not. But if so, the purpose would have to be a union to work for the Lord and in harmony with His directions on the subject.

I think, at this point, I can do more good in my calling, by being single.

[Woody]

GLG ... I thank you for bringing up this topic ... but personally when it comes to talking about WOMEN and particularly about Women's Rights or how we treat women in the church today - I try hard to stay away from conflict and controversial discussions. I prefer the more calm and gentle discussions. It's just my nature.

[phkrause]

GP about arranged marriage! I remember reading a while back somewhere, that showed some statistics about arranged marriages vs conventional marraige. It showed that arranged marriages had a very high rate of success compared to conventional ones. Not sure of the numbers. Sorry. :(

[CoAspen]

So then, you don't care how you or others dress or behave in church or anywhere else?

BTW, you are stretching what I said to extremes that I never intended. Of course, if my decisions are based soley for fear that someone might be offended, then I probably wind up not doing anything! The other extreme is to say that what I do should not matter to others; how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility.

Gerry,

As I have said, its not about what other people do, it is how I live. Not stretching to extreme, just merely asking a generic question that only each of us can answer for our self. The talk about how women dress or don't dress is a symptom of humans wanting to not be responsible for their own thoughts and actions. That is a basic of the original sin, we are not responsible, God is, for placing us in an impossible situation.

If thine eye offend thee, then pluck it out...in other words..look the other way, don't stop and stare!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So then, you don't care how you or others dress or behave in church or anywhere else?

BTW, you are stretching what I said to extremes that I never intended. Of course, if my decisions are based soley for fear that someone might be offended, then I probably wind up not doing anything! The other extreme is to say that what I do should not matter to others; how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility.

Gerry,

As I have said, its not about what other people do, it is how I live. Not stretching to extreme, just merely asking a generic question that only each of us can answer for our self. The talk about how women dress or don't dress is a symptom of humans wanting to not be responsible for their own thoughts and actions. That is a basic of the original sin, we are not responsible, God is, for placing us in an impossible situation.

If thine eye offend thee, then pluck it out...in other words..look the other way, don't stop and stare!

Good Thought CoA