Modesty - what do you guys think?

[Gerr]

[doug yowell]

Hey, a tall, ruggedly handsome, broad-shouldered man might turn a woman's head as well!

Ah, well, a shorty like me will never turn any heads.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ah, perhaps you sell yourself a little short,Gerry!!

Uh. Doug - He IS short

(Perhaps not as much in Townhall as he is in the theology threads.) lol

[Gerr]

E tu Woody?

[doug yowell]

E tu Woody?

Obviously Woody's got your back,Gerry.

[Gerr]

He's just giving back those left-handed digs I give him.

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: bluebelle

So you're pretty much saying that "typical" men are sexually fragile or like infants that notice the pretty shiny thing, therefore women somehow have to contort their sensibility so as not to inflame them? What I wear (or don't) should not have that much power over you. If it does, then a long talk with God to separate you from your impulses might be in order.

Or maybe you should file a complaint with Him for making men that way. Apparantly sin hasn't had much effect on female sexuality or thinking.Men are told from childhood to learn to control their weaknesses.Women used to be taught modesty from other women until the past generation. Now it's all just the guy's problem.Were all just sick twisted sexual handicaps that can't control their natures like women can,right? The failure of women to admit the difference in sexual nature is a modern "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Doug, God didn't make men that way. However, as long as men keep using this as an excuse it places less responsibility on them. How can you preach self control when you are "made" that way. I'm sorry, it it a cop out. Studies even show that it is more visual stimulation has alot to do with nurture not nature.

[ClubV12]

Nurture, Nature, DNA, it makes no difference how we got here. The fact remains, everyone on the planet recognizes that "man" looks upon a woman in such a way that some discretion is called for in the way a woman clothes herself. Likewise, the way a man clothes himself, but it doesn't apply to a man nearly as much as it does a woman. It's been that way since Adam and Eve looked upon each other and saw that they were naked!

An argument that suggests it is totally man's fault and that women should be able to dress however they want violates this most basic of human reality.

The world knows this, they've always known it, you don't have to be religious to grasp the concept. Hugh Hefner understood it very well indeed. Porn sites count on it. Advertisers use it in any way they can to push the envelope of "standards of decency". TV shows exploit it. Civil laws are based on it.

To dress immodestly and then "blame guys" for their response to it is madness. Women cannot use the "blame the guy" excuse to dress however they want, THAT is the cop-out here!

[doug yowell]

Doug, God didn't make men that way. However, as long as men keep using this as an excuse it places less responsibility on them. How can you preach self control when you are "made" that way. I'm sorry, it it a cop out. Studies even show that it is more visual stimulation has alot to do with nurture not nature.

That was not gist of your previous post nor the point of this last one either. No, God didn't make man with a distorted sexual nature but sin has had it's effect on it's properly intended functioning. Your take on what studies show not only defies what men actually experience without effort,but also defies common sense. Your implication that what affects men sexually is merely a result of their failure to easily repress what is no problem with women is evidence that you know nothing about what men face in this arena. Even the Bible is loaded with examples of the battles of the spiritual nature that are involved here. In the context of this thread it should be self evident that even Christian men have this battle to wage and that women are to understand that they have a responsibility to not use their "freedom to dress anyway they want" to act as a stumbling block to the self control process. The self control that you demand can only be accomplished by the Holy Spirit living within a man so the Christian has no excuse for failure to resist temptation. But if the woman is the source of that temptation then why should she not be considered part of the problem? Men and women do not have the same sexual natures, are you denying that?

[whatisthis]

Looks to me like I don't need to read all of this to get the gist of it, but I will. Still, I may as well just ask first. Is this one of those strings where all the women are blaming all the men and all the men are blaming the women for the sex issue? We women usually say that if the naughty men would just keep their minds in the right place there would be no problem, and the men are saying if the naughty women would just keep their clothes in the right place there would be no problem!

Is it okay to say that there could be a problem anyway? The problem is that sex is best when it's committed, moral, free to be all it needs to be without competition and with a sensitivity to each other's needs that never changes while the passing years change us! BUT, the rebel nature that got into humans during the Adam and Eve era means that we rebel at the very things that are best for us. We women want to show off to men who aren't ours. Men want to partake of women who aren't theirs (with their eyes--first) and the problem is definitely unregenerated hearts! Sooo, the first place we need to look is to the cross. Jesus loves us, messed up as we are, and He died to give us a chance to change our hearts!

[shelly]

Doug, I did not say that women do not bare some responsibility to not cause their brothers to fall. The issue I have with alot of modesty converstions is the suggestion that if women would not dress a certain way then men would not fall. That is not the case. It's like a someone who lies when they find themselves in difficult situations saying "Yes I lie but if you hadn't asked me that question I wouldn't have had to." While that may be the case, the one who lied was in the wrong. While you may find it easier to control your visual nature if a woman is "modest" (which means different things to different people) the ultimate responsibility lies with the one who has a lustful nature, man or woman. They are the ones sinning. The bible already teaches that "the woman made me do it" is not a valid excuse. Another issue in holding the woman as an equal party is that the woman can believe and feel perfectly modest by her standards but not conform to yours.She would have done what she knew to do to not cause you to stumble but you did anyway. What more can she do? As far as the different natures of men and women you speak of, I think it is individual. I don't buy the hype that men are visual and can't control themselves unless women are covered.

[whatisthis]

Hi Shelly, you are making some good points. I don't buy the hype that men are visual and can't control themselves OR that women don't know what they are doing when they dress that way, either, but there is some validity to both kinds of "hype" I sort of believe. We women are just as visual as men are, it's just that our part of visual is being visually attractive. We are visual enough to usually figure out what that is, using a mirror! We start doing that pretty young. Men are visual too. The problem jsut may be in what we're viewing.

For me, the more I view Jesus complete love for me as I am, His commitment all the way to death for me, His rising and showing up to say His first hello after rising to a woman, (right before going to see His Father in heaven)--all tell me that I am valuable as a woman. It's daily changing how I think in little ways that surprise me. But I have a long way to go!

[Guest Editornado]

Who sets the mark for what's modest and what's not? Who is the arbiter of "standards"? Standards and fashions and cultural attitudes change all the time and in every locale. It's PRINCIPLES that stand for all time.

I've always dressed and acted modestly (which may account for my never having been dated by a church member or married, but that's an aside).

I used to work for an Adventist ministry in Loma Linda, whose donor base was chronologically old, and religiously conservative. Like ultra-conservative. I was their communications director, and edited the magazine, newsletters, and website content. My 1.5-inch-tall mugshot appeared with my editorials 3 times a year. Well, one time my female boss got a letter saying the female donor was SHOCKED, just SHOCKED that an Adventist editor was shown with cleavage and wearing earrings, and all donations were suspended until said editor was chastised and cleaned up her act.

So: female boss and I go to the male graphic designer's large monitor and blow up the mug shot to twice life-size. There was my neck and neckline on the man's screen. Lo and behold, no cleavage. No earrings. Back to the printed magazine we went. There seemed to be a white printing fault in some magazines but not others. A half a pixel of white paper showed through. But who got the lecture on godly modesty and refraining from the appearance of evil? Not the hyper-critical, judgmental, blackmailing donor, I'll tell you.

SIGH......... People who go looking for evil will find evil, even when it's not there. Lust and criticism is in the eye of the beholder. The men in the above video need to transfer their credits to a monastery if they think that God is not willing to forgive and keep on forgiving. Those kind of people, men and women, should wear a burqa themselves if they need to scourge their flesh for what their minds twist.

Now, can we talk about modesty in BOTH genders, please? Why are women always the target of dress codes, prohibitions, and sharia?

[Woody]

Wow Editornado. A shocking and interesting story.

[ClubV12]

Shelly says,

"I don't buy the hype that men are visual and can't control themselves unless women are covered."

Hugh Hefner took that concept to the bank! It's a no brainer. He is COUNTING on them not being able to control themselves and to BUY his magazine, and then hide it in the closet, so the wife won't find it. He is COUNTING on that very thing so that men will click on his web site. It is SO fundamental to human nature to deny it is just south of "crazy".

whatisthis says,

"Sooo, the first place we need to look is to the cross."

Yeah, I'm striving to do that, please don't interupt the process with a low cut blouse swinging your ta ta's in my face. Or a high cut up the side dress exposing your underwear. Or a see through blouse showing off your new bra. I'm trying to stay focused on something else, the sidewalk, the street man hole cover, ANYTHING but YOU in your immodest clothing. Not that you have any responsibility to help me, far be it from the ladies to even acknowledge the problem! Well go ahead then, wear that bikini to church or to a wedding or go shopping at the mall if you have NO responsibility. The LAW will draw the line FOR YOU (and I won't post your bail), if you can't quite grasp at least the fundamentals of "modesty".

So, where do YOU draw the line ladies? Do you first look up all the relevant civil laws to see how far you can push the envelope of immodesty? Do you use TV, magazines and movies to determine how immodest you can be and still be acceptable?

Look to the cross? How about, look to ELLEN WHITE as well for some basic guidelines FROM GOD as to how you should dress? How abouot taking some personal responsibility and telling your daughter she looks like a woman of the street when she's wearing that mini skirt and pink panties!

Draw the line somewhere, PLEASE, it is incredibly offensive to see some of you ladies dress the way you do, in CHURCH no less!

[doug yowell]

Shelly says,

"I don't buy the hype that men are visual and can't control themselves unless women are covered."

whatisthis says,

"Sooo, the first place we need to look is to the cross."

Yeah, I'm striving to do that, please don't interupt the process with a low cut blouse swinging your ta ta's in my face. Or a high cut up the side dress exposing your underwear. Or a see through blouse showing off your new bra. I'm trying to stay focused on something else, the sidewalk, the street man hole cover, ANYTHING but YOU in your immodest clothing. Not that you have any responsibility to help me, far be it from the ladies to even acknowledge the problem! Well go ahead then, wear that bikini to church or to a wedding or go shopping at the mall if you have NO responsibility. The LAW will draw the line FOR YOU (and I won't post your bail), if you can't quite grasp at least the fundamentals of "modesty".

So, where do YOU draw the line ladies? Do you first look up all the relevant civil laws to see how far you can push the envelope of immodesty? Do you use TV, magazines and movies to determine how immodest you can be and still be acceptable?

Look to the cross? How about, look to ELLEN WHITE as well for some basic guidelines FROM GOD as to how you should dress? How abouot taking some personal responsibility and telling your daughter she looks like a woman of the street when she's wearing that mini skirt and pink panties!

Draw the line somewhere, PLEASE, it is incredibly offensive to see some of you ladies dress the way you do, in CHURCH no less!

Could we put this discussion in less than personal language? Can we dress our lingo in more modest attire? I agree with your thrust just a little too provacative in it's presentation for my own personal tastes.

[ClubV12]

Agreed Doug and my apologies. It's hard to keep civil when after 20 some pages I get the distinct impression the definition of modesty is still being disputed.

I hope my definition and description was clear enough to cut through the hype and get to the point. Sorry it was offensive, it's about as offensive as seeing this type of clothing worn by professed christians.

Does it HAVE to be spelled out? Apparently it does as common sense is pushed aside in place of denial there is even a problem!

The guidelines for dress at an SDA school were posted earlier. That got blown off and dismissed. The EGW guidelines for dress have been totally ignored. The debate rages over a definition of "modest".

How pathetic is that....

[shelly]

Doug, all I can do is pray and hope that your have the victory to overcome. I know it cannot be easy if your have a visual nature. Each man has different things that he finds difficult to handle visually, and women would have to be covered head to toe to ensure that they are completely modest to men at all time. Again, what is modest to one individual may not be adequate to another. That is why I feel that men need to take control-you have victory through Christ. I would not base whether I sinned or not on the whims of another human being. Lust is sin and we are held accountable.

[shelly]

The spirit of EGW's views on modesty may be applied, but not her actual instruction. I found the guidelines posted by the SDA school narrow minded and culturally insensitive (ie dreadlocks).

[Stan]

I recently heard one Preacher ask his female congregation to 'please do not create eye magnets' to certain parts of the female body.

Thought that was an interesting term.

[ClubV12]

"narrow minded and culturally insensitive"

I think that pretty well sums up the christian life in a nut shell. Christians should be narrow minded, entering the kingdom through a narrow gate. Christians are not callled to be like the world, to follow the latest fashions, to acquire "things" or "dress" in such a manner that we duplicate the world. Our message should be consistent, regardless of what is or isn't popular at the time. If that means we are not "culturally sensitive" I don't have a problem with that.

Apply the dress and health principles of EGW you WILL find that dread locks are unhealthy (and wordly).

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

And what's the point of dressing anyway? To cover up or to reveal?

[Bravus]

Christianity has a looong history of making the cultural trends of the day into tests of faith. Remember the ban on beards at Avondale College in the 70s?

[Dr. Shane]

And what's the point of dressing anyway? To cover up or to reveal?

I think protection from the elements would be the primary reason.

[ClubV12]

From Leviticus, for those who think Ellen White is "so yesterday", we have some guidelines for the people.

Don't have any bald spots on your head. Don't trim the edges of your beard. Don't cut yourself (body piercings).

If that sounds culturally insensitive, take it up with the author, God.