Modesty - what do you guys think?

[Dr. Shane]

Until men stop making excuses about their "visual" nature and begin trying to overcome their lustful nature...

[Woody]

I dunno, Woody - seems like a foolproof scheme to me: if God fails to answer our prayers it's never, ever his fault, always ours.

(again, reflecting what people say, not what I believe to be the truth)

I got yur back man. Don't fear.

[Woody]

Quote:

I suspect, in Samson's case, he never sincerely asked for a new heart, preferring the pleasures of sin for a season.

Every man on earth prefers the pleasures of sin. All we can do is ask God to change that in us. For HE alone is the only one who can. But if He doesn't ... at least we've done our duty by asking.

[ClubV12]

...GreatLakesGramma opens this thread like a can of worms and then quietly sits back to watch the fireworks? Does that about cover it? Ha Ha Ha

[Dr. Shane]

I dunno, Woody - seems like a foolproof scheme to me: if God fails to answer our prayers it's never, ever his fault, always ours.

(again, reflecting what people say, not what I believe to be the truth)

We really don't have all the answers, do we?

It does appear that for most people, walking in the Spirit requires more than just willingness but also a concentrated effort. That has been my experience. When I fall into sin, I can hardly blame God. I need to identify triggers that cause me to fall into a sin I struggle with. When those triggers occur, I need to have a plan of action of how I am going to avoid the sin. That seems to be my experience. God rarely magically removes a temptation from me and grants me victory without effort on my part.

[Woody]

Quote:

God rarely magically removes a temptation from me and grants me victory without effort on my part.

OH. Perhaps I was mistaken but someone previously stated that God can and will do Anything we ask.

[Woody]

...GreatLakesGramma opens this thread like a can of worms and then quietly sits back to watch the fireworks? Does that about cover it? Ha Ha Ha

lol. U R SO RIGHT. :)

[Woody]

Quote:

We really don't have all the answers, do we?

Good Point Shane. And that is fine as long as we admit it rather than promoting old traditions.

[CoAspen]

modesty |ˈmädəstē|

noun

the quality or state of being unassuming or moderate in the estimation of one's abilities

• the quality of being relatively moderate, limited, or small in amount, rate, or level

• behavior, manner, or appearance intended to avoid impropriety or indecency

So why does christianity always focus on the last part of the above definition.

Modesty

Standards of modesty (also called demureness or reticence) are aspects of the culture of a country or people, at a given point in time, and is a measure against which an individual in society may be judged.

Modesty may be expressed in social interaction by communicating in a way exhibiting humility, shyness, or simplicity. The general elements of modesty include:

Downplaying one's accomplishments (see humility)

Behavior, manner, or appearance intended to avoid impropriety or indecency

Avoiding insincere self-abasement through false or sham modesty, which is a form of boasting.[citation needed]

A second expression of modesty, isolated from communication and human interface, focuses more on internal perception of superiority and may be expressed in the following ways:

through work ethic,

motivation for self improvement,

and tolerance of others.

Physical modesty dominates the social stage. Fashions and fads at times test the limits of community standards of modesty. People can be subjected to peer pressure, both to conform to community standards or to flout them. Community standards of modesty however may be driven by a sense of superiority, which contrasts some definitions of modesty.

[LifeHiscost]

And to guys, you guys should be maintain your head.

But well, I'm in Indonesia after all, where you can find a virgin girl as a majority.

Thank you, IreneFaye. Your post did a lot that reveals the different way culture determines what is considered modest or immodest. I would suggest the person who has asked God to write His commandments in their heart will have little trouble defining what other rules are necessary to describe walking circumspectly in dress, without sitting in judgment of the attire of others.

God Blesses!

[shelly]

Shane, I think you are missing my point. I was merely saying that both sexes have needs within thier nature that can be an excuse for not dealing with the sins in their lives. Everytime modesty is brought up the visual nature of men is referenced. It is almost like although it excuses the act of lust. I was referencing the woman's need to be desired and found attractive can be used as an excuse for dressing immodestly to attract male attention. While both may be valid mountains in our struggle, both sexes must take full responsibility and overcome. If lust is at the heart of an individual, man or woman, no amount of modesty from those around them will fix this problem.

[Dr. Shane]

It is a poor comparison. Men are visually stimulated. A man is not a tree. Trees do not noticed trashy dressed women. Men do.

What you are trying to say is that a woman feels compelled by her nature to dress in an immodest way so that she can attract male attention and thus feel attractive. In fact, your comparison goes as far as saying a woman's desire to dress immodestly is as strong as a man's desire to notice a trashy-dressed woman. I reject that comparison completely.

I believe a woman longs to feel appreciated emotionally. A woman longs to be treated kindly and spoken to with respect. When a man speaks roughly to a woman or treats her with indifference, many women will feel slighted and hurt. This desire of a woman to feel appreciated emotionally can be compared to a man's desire for a sexual connection.

How does a woman feel when she discovers that a man has been toying with her affections? Does she feel frustrated and perhaps a little angry?

[shelly]

Shane, since I am a woman I think I probably have more insight on the needs of a woman to feel attractive than you do. It is a strong, driving need. Some women dress modestly not because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit but to merely "attract" the right type of mate. While I, as a woman, would not try to pretend I know how men resepond to visual stimuli I think you should take a womans word for how many women feel about how they dress. The real question is how can a man justify toying with someone for his own game? What kind of human being does it make him?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

.....since I am a woman I think I probably have more insight on the needs of a woman to feel attractive than you do.

I think you have hit on a point that many, many men do not wish to acknowledge, that women know more about their own needs than do men. Men are still trying to find a reason for their own behavior, to lessen the responsibility of self control. As I said before...it started with Adam...Lord, it was this women you gave me.

Male and female both have responsibilities when it comes to sexual modesty, but by far, the predominant thought is that women have the biggest part of the issue. Bah-humbug!!!!

[Tom Wetmore]

... If lust is at the heart of an individual, man or woman, no amount of modesty from those around them will fix this problem.

And this is the best rebuttal of the video posted thus far in this whole discussion.

[Gerr]

If lust is at the heart of an individual, man or woman, no amount of modesty from those around them will fix this problem.

But what would arouse a man quicker who already has lust in his heart, a woman in a burqa or one dressed like a whore?

[LifeHiscost]

But what would arouse a man quicker who already has lust in his heart, a woman in a burqa or one dressed like a whore?

That depends upon the heart of the person viewing the respective

"professional". I'm sure you've heard of the men who express love for an individual and when they have satisfied their lust, they turn to hate, realizing their own weakness has betrayed them.

I recall a specific brother, Absalom I believe, and sister who was taken advantage of, in which this occurred. Sin seems pleasurable for the moment but left to blossom, at the last it bites like an adder.

God blesses!

[ClubV12]

I do think the issue is far more subtle than outright "lust in the heart". Upon seeing a woman dressed "immodestly" even a fleeting thought, quickly dismissed, is something I would like to avoid. Impossibly high goal? Not really, it might take a life time but I will continue to strive for that "perfection" of character and thought (relying on the Lord of course).

My plea to the christian women around me: HELP!!!!

My plea to the women of the world? That's a "shout out" that will carry little weight. But I expect more from my christian sisters to hear my sincere plea.

[shelly]

Originally Posted By: shelly

If lust is at the heart of an individual, man or woman, no amount of modesty from those around them will fix this problem.

But what would arouse a man quicker who already has lust in his heart, a woman in a burqa or one dressed like a whore?

Depends. Someone with a lustful heart will lust no matter what. There are men who see modest women and want to know what kind of body she has under those clothes or say that she is probably a closet "freak" and they are more interested in pursuing her. A man who stumbles into lust will be less likely to do so around a modestly dressed woman. There are two types of individuals we are discussing here. Men who are lustful by nature, and those who fall when presented with temptation. Those who are weak to temptation, like all of us, can be helped with modest dress. Those who have a lustful spirit need no occation to lust after a female.

[Gerr]

NIV84 | Job 31:1 “I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl.

But it makes so much easier to break that covenant when a woman goes around parading her wares.

[CoAspen]

Yes! Gerry, It would be much easier in life, for everything, it others would only follow my values, my beliefs and my thoughts, there by easing my path through life. But isn't that a bit lazy, putting others in control of my own life? Don't we want to be in charge of making the right decisions, taking responsibility for our course through this life?

Standing before Christ and saying, "but if they, her or him had only done this, then I wouldn't have done that"...well...I doubt if that will pass muster!

I see this topic, as usual, it's been brought up before, being about what others responsibilities are, not my own.

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, it is impossible to separate the influence of others on one's own personal behaviour. Of course we will all be 100% liable for our personal actions, I will also be held liable for those whose actions I played a roll in. If I was the cause of their stumbling, I will have to accept the consequences of my actions that caused them to stumble. As they have to accept their own responsibility as well.

No man (or woman) is an island unto themselves.

[Gerr]

Depends. Someone with a lustful heart will lust no matter what. There are men who see modest women and want to know what kind of body she has under those clothes or say that she is probably a closet "freak" and they are more interested in pursuing her. A man who stumbles into lust will be less likely to do so around a modestly dressed woman. There are two types of individuals we are discussing here. Men who are lustful by nature, and those who fall when presented with temptation. Those who are weak to temptation, like all of us, can be helped with modest dress. Those who have a lustful spirit need no occation to lust after a female.

If you have done your best to dress modestly, what a man does in spite of that modesty, is out your hands. But if you are saying that men will lust no matter how you dress so you might as well dress any which way would be wrong, IMHO.

Paul had this to say: ESV | 1 Co 8:9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak.

Since people stumble any, are we then to say that it won't matter what we do?

[Gerr]

So then, you don't care how you or others dress or behave in church or anywhere else?

BTW, you are stretching what I said to extremes that I never intended. Of course, if my decisions are based soley for fear that someone might be offended, then I probably wind up not doing anything! The other extreme is to say that what I do should not matter to others; how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility.

[Woody]

So then, you don't care how you or others dress or behave in church or anywhere else?

BTW, you are stretching what I said to extremes that I never intended. Of course, if my decisions are based soley for fear that someone might be offended, then I probably wind up not doing anything! The other extreme is to say that what I do should not matter to others; how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility.

I would say that "how they respond to what I do is their own responsibility" ... is a true statement.