Modesty - what do you guys think?

[ClubV12]

CoAspen says,

"...by essentially blaming the women for their own lack of self control."

I assume your position is that women have zero responsibility in this issue? Perhaps that is not the case, it's a fine line between blaming men alone and understanding the influence women have on men. A womans influence cannot so easily be dismissed by placing the blame solely on men.

The idea is ludicrous. Following that logic it's not Lady Gaga's fault for how she does or doesn't dress and the impact that has on others (men or women). It's not a problem for the store that sells pornography. The liquor store owner is not responsible for those who cannot control their desire for drink. We ALL have a responsibilty to help, protect, raise up those among us who are tempted. You don't even have to be a christian to understand the need for this. It's why society has "law", at the very least. Expose "to much" flesh in public, get aressted, simple as that. Do we then look at man's law or God's law for what is acceptable and what is not?

The christians law is bible based, it's a moral law. If you cause a brother or sister to stumble you DO play a part in their sin, and you WILL be held accountable for it.

What if you are unaware of your cause of someone stumbling? If you are listening to the Holy Spirit, you will know. The thought will come to you, embrace it, let it grow louder. Don't reject it. You know when something just doesn't feel right.

[CoAspen]

Difficulty understanding the whole post....?

I am not in the blame game....my clothes are rather dirty and ragged.

[Gordon1]

All bear responsibility for their influence.

[ClubV12]

Please, wash them and buy some new ones as the need arises (a little joke, given in love).

I think the definition of lust, all though accurate, may miss the point of this thread. It's not like most men are in danger of lust as it pertains to an exact definition. They are not likely to be a rapist or murderer (as was David when it came to Bathsheba).

It's more subtle than that, perhaps more insidious. It might be a fleeting thought, quickly rejected, forgiveness asked and received, never the less, it falls short of God's desired plan for us men. It's also a problem for men, and women, becoming numb to christian standards of modesty, based on the worldly view of modesty.

It's about being distracted, causing the mind to drift away from heavenly things, not rape or lust per se. It's about dressing in a such a way that one is unquestionably a living light for the Lord. Not to "shabby" and not to "worldly", avoiding extremes in all cases. We do not want to draw attention to ourselves from extreme dress on either side of the road.

[Tom Wetmore]

Lust is in the eye of the beholder.

I have been told that even in burqa lands, a glimpse of a foot or hand, or hair, or smile or eyes of a woman is enough of an excuse for a man to lose control of himself. Women still get raped in those countries.

As I said before, modesty is in the eye of the beholder. At some point to protect men from their own raging uncontrollable passions, women will need to be locked behind closed doors, kept in separate quarters, not allowed in public so a man might not be tempted.

How do such men control themselves around their own daughters or sisters or even their own mother?!?!

Paul counseled Timothy to regard and treat the elder women as his own mother and the younger women as his own sister. That calls for respect, self control, and seeing them in an entirely different way.

[Woody]

My father always said: You can look but not touch.

ANd does Ellen White back this up?

Quote:

We are not to withdraw ourselves from the world in order to escape persecution. We are to abide among men, that the savor of divine love may be as salt to preserve the world from corruption. {RH, July 27, 1905 par. 5}

Well I think when she says "men" that she means mankind.

[phkrause]

I don't agree with this video! It seems to be the opinion of one horny guy (I hope that's ok to say if not just delete post). Now that's not saying that there are not more like him. The title says "Modesty" not provacity(sp)! He never really says what he deems to be modesty in dress, only that women just make him @#$%&. I do believe that as we get older we do change, unless we've become sex addicts, than we need to get some help.

[ClubV12]

Some may see a horny guy. I see a guy that wants a closer walk with Jesus. Again, I thank God such men tread shoe leather and at least one who had the courage to speak out. It IS and REMAINS a problem, in church, at schools, on the downtown sidewalk, around the neighborhood, at the mall. We are inundated with it every where we look. Immodest dress is rampant, our society has become numb to the problem.

Where do we, where do you draw the line? Lets talk specifics of modesty, I think that was the purpose of the video, to inspire dialog on the subject.

Do not judge others by their dress, or their opinion of a definition of modesty. Do not dwell on the subject of dress. Dwell on a closer relationship with Jesus, but don't ignore the problem. Don't dismiss it as a non-issue, it is a serious matter. A reflection of just how far our society has fallen in terms of understanding basic modesty principals. Truly, we live in a society where "anything goes".

Because the lack of a definition of modesty was absent in the video, and rightly so, here is a specific example of MINIMUM standards from one SDA school.

"Men teach in long pants (no jeans) but may wear shorts off campus or after school. Men must wear collared shirts to church meetings. Women must always wear loose fitting skirts and dresses past the knee when going off campus or "in public" on campus. Women must wear modest shorts, slacks or pants only on campus in the evening or when exercising."

Unacceptable Dress:

"Tight and/or short shorts, low cleavages or sleeveless/sheer blouses or dresses are never acceptable. No dreadlocks for men or women. Hair should not be below the ears for men. Please refrain from bringing jewelry."

EGW said women could wear pants, UNDER their skirt!! Applicable today? Or only for her time?

[Woody]

Quote:

EGW said women could wear pants, UNDER their skirt!! Applicable today? Or only for her time?

She also said that dress should not draw attention to the bearer. So if culture would stare at such an attire ... it might not be best.

[ClubV12]

Thats a valid point and well taken principal Woody. We are not to draw attention to ourselves. A dress code should be fairly consistent at the same time. If society and fashion happen to favor it, at any given point in time, OK. If your personal code falls out of fashion, thats OK too.

Some basic standards must apply regardless of current fashion trends, even if it means "drawing attention" to yourself.

Fashion is so fickle, here today, gone tomorrow, be consistent through it all.

[Bravus]

The point is, not all women are Christians. An appeal to Christian modesty is appropriate, but there will still be immodestly clad women around on campus. It's in that context that we're saying it's necessary for men to take responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.

As so often happens, this discussion has fallen into a false dichotomy in which it's assumed, without foundation and often in the face of what is actually said, that those calling men to be responsible absolve women of all responsibility.

This is not true: it's a matter of emphasis.

[ClubV12]

Good call Bravus, I think the video offers sound advice on taking that responsibilty.

Look at the sidewalk! OK, try not to trip and fall at the same time.

Breathe a prayer, sing a song in your heart. Stay focused on the Lord. Good, solid, practicle advice for a young man on a college campus, or any man walking the streets these days. Littered as they are with immodestly clad ladies (christian or not).

Prayer should be like breathing, you can't live without it.

[SivartM]

The Bible clearly gives us the principles by which to measure when women's dress in church is not right. If we respect and believe God's word, we will want to do what God has revealed to us. We have responsibilites to each other in church and can't only dress to please ourselves but must consider also how our appearance affects others. This is especially true of women's influence on men.

No rules for men? Their clothing doesn't influence women?

[Woody]

Good call Bravus, I think the video offers sound advice on taking that responsibilty.

Look at the sidewalk! OK, try not to trip and fall at the same time.

Breathe a prayer, sing a song in your heart. Stay focused on the Lord. Good, solid, practicle advice for a young man on a college campus, or any man walking the streets these days. Littered as they are with immodestly clad ladies (christian or not).

Prayer should be like breathing, you can't live without it.

I would also suggest slow rhythemic breathing. Try to calm one's self down and relax. And of all things continue to breath so that one does not faint.

[doug yowell]

No rules for men? Their clothing doesn't influence women?

To do what? Are you suggesting that men and women are wired the same when it comes their sexual natures?

[Amelia]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

No rules for men? Their clothing doesn't influence women?

To do what? Are you suggesting that men and women are wired the same when it comes their sexual natures?

Most often mens clothing does nothing for me. Some types turn my stomach. Like the low slung pants and showing underwear. Then there are those gross guys who can't go anywhere without constantly touching themselves or walking about with one hand down their pants. Nasty. Then there are those who go about without their shirts on. The vast majority should remain covered up.

Do these guys really think they are sexy? Is it a young gal thing?

[Gordon1]

No rules for men? Their clothing doesn't influence women?

Yes Travis also a valid point. You'd not find Christ wearing T-shirts or shorts, or flirting.

[shelly]

There is no one size fits all standard of modesty. What is perfectly accpetable to one individual is not to another. If men rely on women covering themselves to deal with their lustful nature instead of praying for deliverance they will find themselves battling with lust. Even the modest women of today would be considered immodest 100 yrs ago. I had a brief history of clothing class several years ago that really opened up my eyes to understanding how much modesty is generational social construct that rapidly changes.

[Gordon1]

But Shelly, Heaven must have a standard which is unchanging.

The world is under Satan's direction, so unsafe as a guide. If we descend as far as he leads us, we'll all be looking like prostitutes. And our actions will follow suit.

Not the robe of righteousness that Christ would have us wear.

[Dr. Shane]

Most often mens clothing does nothing for me...

I think most women are either attracted to men with money, which translates into security, OR those that are charming, which translates into caring. Of course, the one translating those things should probably lost his or her job.

[Dr. Shane]

A woman wearing sexy clothing can be a distraction to me. I don't think I have ever looked at sexy dressed woman and coveted her in many years. But I have certainly been distracted by such women. And I do find myself treating those trashy-dressed women with less respect then I do a modestly dressed woman. The woman that dresses modestly just seems to broadcast that she has depth. The trashy-dressed woman just comes off as being superficial.

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

No rules for men? Their clothing doesn't influence women?

Yes Travis also a valid point. You'd not find Christ wearing T-shirts or shorts, or flirting.

That's a little weird,Gordon.

[cricket]

I think most women are either attracted to men with money, which translates into security, OR those that are charming, which translates into caring. Of course, the one translating those things should probably lost his or her job.

"Most" does not really apply to the world of men and women. We are a variety of persons with varying individual tastes and persuasions. (Thank God!)

Worry about what you, the individual, are wearing. If it's not the robe of Christ's righteousness, then look for the Heavenly Tailor. If it is the robe of Christ's righteousness, then you'll be so blinded by His light you won't even see what others wear on the outside--you'll be looking inward and upward.

[shelly]

But Shelly, Heaven must have a standard which is unchanging.

The world is under Satan's direction, so unsafe as a guide. If we descend as far as he leads us, we'll all be looking like prostitutes. And our actions will follow suit.

Not the robe of righteousness that Christ would have us wear.

Being modest according to the society in which one lives in should not change. Ideas of modesty will always change. I seriously doubt men want to go back to wearing tights/stockings. There was a time where cleavage was considered modest where and seeing a womans ankle was thought of as seeing her nude. A special on women's fashion I was watching a few weeks ago went on to show how churches condemed dresses coming just below the knee as unchristian. Modesty is ever changeing and evolving. There is no unchanging standard of modesty. Even one's body type can play apart in modest dress.

[shelly]

A woman wearing sexy clothing can be a distraction to me. I don't think I have ever looked at sexy dressed woman and coveted her in many years. But I have certainly been distracted by such women. And I do find myself treating those trashy-dressed women with less respect then I do a modestly dressed woman. The woman that dresses modestly just seems to broadcast that she has depth. The trashy-dressed woman just comes off as being superficial.

If this is the case you are missing out on a strong witness to these women. Many women dress this way because they feel that their worth comes from the way they look. They have low self-worth which is relected in the way they dress. Some even believe they do not deserve a better quality of men-and all they have to offer men is their bodies. As their brother in Christ you are ignoring the opportunity to show them that they are worth more and that they should demand more. Instead, you are only perpetuating the cycle. Besides, everyone deserves your respect. Didn't Jesus tell us what ever we did to the least . . . ?