Modesty - what do you guys think?

[abelisle]

For Amelia,

Can this guy go shirtless?

Alex (BTW, that's the younger me - LOL)

[abelisle]

Or how about the "real" me?

Alex (clearly being immodest in a modesty thread )

[ClubV12]

Well don't be to hard on Shane, Shelly. I understand what you are saying and we should strive for lofty goals, they are achievable. But alas, along the way to that goal many of us are to weak to bear that cross at this point in our growth.

Shane did not define "trashy" any more than we have defined "modest", but his observation is often reality. Respect, by human nature, goes up or down based on appearance, for men or women.

I would very much like to offer more help to a homeless lady in my community, I do what I can to help. But some folks lifestyles limit what you can do, they place themselves, by their choice, outside of God's full measure of blessing. In this case she has a rather aggressive dog that hates my dogs. She smokes like a chimney as well! I can only help her a little at a time and in "emergency" mode only. How I wish I could do more, but she has to help herself to some degree as well. Perhaps that Steps to Christ book I gave her recently will help her see a little bit more light. She is, by the way, former SDA. I'm not put off by her clothing as much as by her lifestyle choices. To me, it's like working with radiation, I can only take it in small doses.

Modesty is also time and place!

[shelly]

ClubV12 I understand what you are saying, but it is difficult to see the superficialness of the world translated into the church. We judge someone by how they appear on the outside just as much if not more than those in the world. Modest dress can be embraced to hide a sinful lifestyle worse than the one being lived by the immodest individual. Someone could lie, steal, cheat on their spouse, come to church on Sabbath dressed appropriately and be nominated for the Board.

[lazarus]

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Yes Travis also a valid point. You'd not find Christ wearing T-shirts or shorts, or flirting.

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That's a little weird,Gordon.

LOL, that really is.

Jesus didn't wear t-shirts or shorts?

[ClubV12]

Agreed! While recognizing the dress problem, modest or immodest, we should not spend a lot of time on the issue. Preference should be given to a closer walk and many of these problems will heal themselves. As we can't see the heart, reality is we are forced to some degree to rely on that outward appearance. Which includes an individuals testimony, "works", lifestyle and dress.

I do hope this thread will result in all of us considering modesty as an important aspect of our overall witness. In and out of the church. Not only what we wear, but what we drive, how our homes look (inside and out), how we conduct ourselves.

But again, we can't see the heart and to often rush to judgement. A delicate balance is needed. We can't be blind to obvious problems, and yet, we have to let the wheat and tares grow together.

I won't be driving my really over the top flashy car to church anytime soon. I don't want to have a converstion centered on my car in that environment. In fact, being a relative new christian, I'm begining to question whether or not I should sell it. It's a hard choice for me, having owned the car and having done substantial work on it for years. But reality is, it's not at all "modest". Is it, for me, an idol,,, I wonder.

[IreneFaye]

I don't know what to say in this threats. Since I lived in Indonesia--where muslim is the majority in the country. Well, it's definetly rare to see a girl with what you guys say modesty.

In our campus, it's forbidden to wear a skirt that sorter then your knee length, wearing a you can see, and of course showing your navel, or any skin that in some of the guys said attractive.

So, I'm saying, if you want to see immodest girls, go to my country, and maybe you'll feel the bliss. Don't get me wrong I'm a girl. It's not like I'm saying that being immodest is wrong--actualy I'll say that I'm pretty immodest for a girl (wearing only Shirt and pants to campus). But, I think it's completly depend on the guy to think about what tempted them. Seriously, I've talked to my male friend, and he said that it's actualy raised his curiousity when he saw a girl wearing hijab-and muslim clothes. He said that he would wonder what the girl like without it, and said that it would be nice. Seriouly if you all guys that read this didn't understand the meaning of "nice" in his words, then I'll doubt your maleness.

I've heard from my muslim friend who had go to Saudi said that in Saudi if you see a woman who didn't wear the hijab that cover almost all her face (it means you could see only her eyes), it's considered as modesty--means if you wear hijab, but you show the guys your face, you could be a potential rape victim. But there goes in Indonesia, even in some part of the country--where even the lamp haven't reach it, a woman wear even less dress then any girl you've seen in the western country. They only cover what they think they should cover--and let the girls play naked, without even covering their breast. But the tendecy of rape case in that place is even lower then here in the big city. That should be count as something.

So to tell you the truth, it's wrong to tell girls to be immodest. Since we're girl, we like to be modest. Not to attract guys, but to see our self in the miror and said, wow we're pretty. And to guys, you guys should be maintain your head.

But well, I'm in Indonesia after all, where you can find a virgin girl as a majority.

[Gordon1]

I won't be driving my really over the top flashy car to church anytime soon. I don't want to have a converstion centered on my car in that environment. In fact, being a relative new christian, I'm begining to question whether or not I should sell it. It's a hard choice for me, having owned the car and having done substantial work on it for years. But reality is, it's not at all "modest". Is it, for me, an idol,,, I wonder.

Good thoughts. May God grant you strength to overcome and liberty from idolatry. So many of us will hold onto these until the plagues begin to fall - - too late.

Focusing on the life of Christ and His soon coming will enable us to permanently shed our idols, with no looking back like Lot's wife. This is true victory in Jesus.

[Gordon1]

Welcome Irene Faye,

But well, I'm in Indonesia after all, where you can find a virgin girl as a majority.

Here you've underlined a principle distinguishing factor from Western society.

[ClubV12]

Hey, here's a thought. If your are uncomfortable driving a certain car to church or wearing certain clothes or jewlery to church; That item may require a closer look to see if it's OK to wear/drive/adorn yourself with OUT of church!

Things that make you go, Hmmmmmmm....

[doug yowell]

ClubV12 I understand what you are saying, but it is difficult to see the superficialness of the world translated into the church. We judge someone by how they appear on the outside just as much if not more than those in the world. Modest dress can be embraced to hide a sinful lifestyle worse than the one being lived by the immodest individual. Someone could lie, steal, cheat on their spouse, come to church on Sabbath dressed appropriately and be nominated for the Board.

Part of the problem on this (and many other threads)is that the focus often takes a wayward journey from it's original destination.The original post was a call for a return to modesty within the church. Since the outside world will generally do the opposite of what God's ideal is, it is a fruitless endeavor to turn the discussion to an attempt to apply the question to the entire society.

The video was an attempt of a guy to express the weakness of the fallen male sexual nature. Since women (generally)have a different sexual makeup and therefore have different weaknessess it doesn't seem productive to simply say that it's a guy problem, get over it.

It is a guy problem that is most often activated by their visual nature. Sorry, that's the way God designed it. The kid in the video was asking for the cooperation of the Christian women in helping prop up the weakness of the male sexual nature. This seems a reasonable and Biblical request,in harmony with the concerns of Jesus and the apostles: "...offenses must come, but woe to those by whom they come"----""we then who are strong ought to bear the scruples of the weak, and not to please ourselves." "No man lives unto themselves." ect...

If culture alone is to be the determinate of impropriaty and modesty then the nudity of the rain forest tribal community could be viewed as a acceptable norm and a possible model for future changes in western culture.I see it as no coincidence that where the gospel goes a drastic change in modesty occurs. Is that now a bad thing?

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I do find myself treating those trashy-dressed women with less respect then I do a modestly dressed woman.

As their brother in Christ you are ignoring the opportunity to show them that they are worth more and that they should demand more.

Of course I am just being honest about my own sinful tendencies. I am not justifying them. I also find myself acting more apprehensive around big burly men with lots of tattoos. Many people do react to others based in some degree on that person's appearance.

Of course God calls us to minister to others. Trashy-dressed women and big burly men with lots of tattoos may be obvious targets for our ministry. But even there, the way we treat such people and interact with them is going to be impacted to some degree by that person's appearance. I think that is just part of our nature.

[Dr. Shane]

So to tell you the truth, it's wrong to tell girls to be immodest. Since we're girl, we like to be modest. Not to attract guys, but to see our self in the miror and said, wow we're pretty. And to guys, you guys should be maintain your head.

I am going to guess that English is not your original language. You are doing pretty good but I think you have the meaning of modesty and immodesty mixed up. Modesty is when a person covers themselves so that others cannot see their body much. Immodesty is when one uses clothing that show a lot of skin and body curves.

I agree that modesty is cultural and there is not one definition that crosses cultures and time periods. As Christians, we should dress modestly, whatever that means on our culture at present date. As men we need to be content with what God has given us. If we are single, we need to be content with that. If we are married, we need to be content with our wife. We should not long for someone we do not have, sexually or emotionally.

I have found that as a Christian, I am more likely to *covet* another Christian woman based on her love for the Christ and dedication to Him. I have been guilty of seeing a Christian woman in the church who is physically attractive, has a attractive family, and is very active in the church and thinking "why didn't I marry a wife like that?" Of course, the moment that thought passes into my mind I think of Proverbs 5:18-20. "May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer - may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be intoxicated with her love. Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife? Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?"

I understand how two people that are "good" Christians can end up committing adultery with each other. We have to guard our hearts and be vigilant against the temptations of the devil. Upon evaluation, I find that often times the devil's temptations are not even grounded in reality. The devil may whisper in my ear "don't you wish you had married an attractive woman with so much love for the Lord like her?" If I give that much thought, I can start becoming discontent with my wife. But when I really consider things, I realize no one is perfect. Sure my wife has defects but so do other women the devil is trying to tempt me with. And my wife loves the Lord too - she just may not be involved in the same activities as some other woman. For me, what I find helpful, is to confide in a trusted friend when I have these types of temptations.

So for me, seeing a half-naked woman showing off her breasts and the curves on her behind doesn't tempt me to covet too much. I may look at her like I look at a nice sports car or a beautiful sunset and admire her beauty. What will tempt me more, is a woman with an attractive spirit.

[Gail]

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EGW said women could wear pants, UNDER their skirt!! Applicable today? Or only for her time?

She also said that dress should not draw attention to the bearer. So if culture would stare at such an attire ... it might not be best.

So I guess I should toss out the watermelon print pants after all?

[Woody]

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So I guess I should toss out the watermelon print pants after all?

I wouldn't mind seeing you in watermelon. But our prophet would.

[Gail]

My thoughts on watching the video was the same as Bravus, sivart and Nan, I admit. I almost got angry at the clip, for it seemed to me to present men as pathetic and weak and almost out of reach for even Jesus to help them. And it seemed as though women were being blamed for men's inability to control themselves.

But maybe I live in a place where modesty is not as bad an issue as it is in the U.S....

In the school where my husband teaches (Adventist academy) the teachers are making efforts to enforce modesty. The women teachers address the female students, of course, but they find that they get flak from the students' parents who draw a different line in the sand.

What feeds into our minds becomes our culture, and we as families do have some control over that.

My question is this- One day in your Christian walk, men, you are going to come across a woman like a Mary Magdalene, someone who can be freed from her chains by coming to Christ. How will you treat her?

[ClubV12]

I work with the poor, the homeless, those less fortunate in my community. I was doing so before I became a christian. It's interesting that now I am a christian how that work has a much deeper meaning than before. I wouldn't be troubled at all offering a "hand up" (NOT a hand out) to someone like Mary Magdalene.

However, I find my primary purpose in helping those less fortunate is also tempered by those who truly want help. I will meet the emergency needs of those I run across, but I am not so likely to offer continuing help to those who abuse the process.

Some folks clearly just want a hand out, and thats all they want, they are "gaming the system", it's how they make their living. You can't help them all...

Like a recent fellow I had do some work around my house. After a few days he wanted more money. He said he could make more money with a cardboard sign, standing on the street corner, in less time, than he could working for me! I never called him back. He was making $75 to $100 a day by Walmart during Christmas, less since the season passed. But enough year round to pay for his room at a hotel.

It's not easy helping these kind of folks, there is some risk (I've been robbed, stolen from, abused, had a knife pulled on me). I'm NOT recommending anyone else do this.

[Gail]

do you think that men find this a greater weakness than any other weakness, say of pride or whatnot?

And... how big a part does media have in fuelling this? What else can a man do to help himself to not "go there"?

[Woody]

the pavement is a blessing from God

[Gail]

the pavement is a blessing from God

And here we were thinking that you were just being humble!

[Woody]

One doesn't need to stare.

A glance is sufficient.

Then it's pavement time. :)

[shelly]

Until men stop making excuses about their "visual" nature and begin trying to overcome their lustful nature will always fall as the responsibility of the women. However, as a woman, I can always counter that the need to be attractive and desired is deep within my nature and men will just have to understand that the tight skirt is just celebrating my womanhood. I doubt that would go very far. We each need to ask God to help us to overcome, whether it be lust or vainety. Not that it is easy, but it is necessary.

[Gail]

Which is kind of neat because if a girl was actually looking for male attention she's not going to get it from you!

But I think of the Victorian era where women were covered almost from head to toe and I think that was a time for scandal and sex. Covering the woman might help some of the problem but there is more to it than that.

[Guest]

We each need to ask God to help us to overcome, whether it be lust or vainety. Not that it is easy, but it is necessary.

Amen!

[Woody]

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We each need to ask God to help us to overcome

Do you think there is anyone here who has NOT asked God to do that? And what do you think was God's reply?