Modesty - what do you guys think?

[Woody]

"Go to the pavement thou sluggard."

[Gail]

We each need to ask God to help us to overcome, whether it be lust or vanity. Not that it is easy, but it is necessary.

I liked your whole post but especially this part.

Letting the old man die... and being transformed into a new creation could be part of the process on the part of both sexes. Never underestimate what the Lord can and will do!

[Woody]

Quote:

"Never underestimate what the Lord can and will do!"

Nice 'pie in the sky' theology. But let's get back to practice rather than theory.

What about those who ask and don't receive? What do you say to them? Keep praying and praying and praying? At what point is it's GOD's responsibility for not answering your prayer ... so that you might once again look at women rather than the pavement?

[Gail]

Quote:

"Never underestimate what the Lord can and will do!"

Nice 'pie in the sky' theology. But let's get back to practice rather than theory.

What about those who ask and don't receive. What do you say to them. Keep praying and praying and praying? At what point is it's GOD's responsibility for not answering your prayer ... so that you might once again look at women rather than the pavement?

I am saying that through experience. The prayer I prayed in that particular instance was not, "Give me strength." That totally fails.

I got my answer when I prayed, "Lord, change my thoughts. Give me the mind of Christ, as the Bible says." The answer I got was to see the situation as God sees it (in accordance with His word). It was the thing that empowered me to get rid of the chain it held to me.

I don't know how you are asking. But in my case, a transformation by the renewing of my mind was what I needed. I was powerless on my own.

[Gail]

It may be good to ask a man who is in love with his wife how he views another woman.

What was it that attracted her to him? And what is it that keeps him home and loyal? What is it that keeps him seeing the beauty of her even when she is in her 70s and way past her physical prime? chances are good that he is not tempted the same as a man who is single, has a bad marriage or is just physically needy.

Ask someone who has had multiple failed marriages to "Barbie dolls" and finds satisfaction in a plainer-looking but faithful helpmeet. He might have an idea, too.

Just thinking, here, like dgrimm...

[Bravus]

Looking at all women, *especially* the attractive ones, as whole human beings with lives, minds, histories and ideas of their own, who Jesus gave himself for, rather than as simply collections of particular curves and textures, is a big help.

Then, as Gail said, having someone at home who I'm absolutely crazy about helps a lot too.

[Guest]

I don't know how you are asking. But in my case, a transformation by the renewing of my mind was what I needed. I was powerless on my own.

Amen! What a great testimony!

[Woody]

Quote:

I am saying that through experience. The prayer I prayed in that particular instance was not, "Give me strength." That totally fails.

I got my answer when I prayed, "Lord, change my thoughts. Give me the mind of Christ, as the Bible says." The answer I got was to see the situation as God sees it (in accordance with His word). It was the thing that empowered me to get rid of the chain it held to me.

I don't know how you are asking. But in my case, a transformation by the renewing of my mind was what I needed. I was powerless on my own.

We are certainly powerless without God. But I reject that God requires the correct semantics. God knows my heart. And He should give me the desires of it when I pray regardless of the correct semantics. Sister White states I believe that the Holy Spirit transforms the wording of our prayers to match the desires of our hearts when they are according to His will. And I believe that.

[Woody]

Looking at all women, *especially* the attractive ones, as whole human beings with lives, minds, histories and ideas of their own, who Jesus gave himself for, rather than as simply collections of particular curves and textures, is a big help.

Then, as Gail said, having someone at home who I'm absolutely crazy about helps a lot too.

[ClubV12]

"...men will just have to understand that the tight skirt is just celebrating my womanhood. I doubt that would go very far."

Celebrating one's womanhood, or manhood, is not a valid excuse for immodesty. Assuming "tight skirt" fits the definition of immodesty, which I think it does. We are called to a higher standard.

"Nice 'pie in the sky' theology. But let's get back to practice rather than theory."

Interesting point, thats a tough one to debate. The Conflict of the Ages series offer's some sound advice on why prayer is not answered at times. Of course there are many reason's why apparently prayer is not answered, but there are indeed times when prayer is "flat out and straight up" not answered. Your prayer may not go any higher than the ceiling of your bedroom at times.

Known sin in your life? Is it clear you are NOT following the light you have been given, but knowingly rejecting it? Choosing your own path, while asking God to bless your choice? Time and time again we see the result of this with the children of Israel, in the wilderness, in Canann, through out their history. Simply put, God will not bless you when you are determined to follow your own path. Worse, He may well let you have exactly what you ask for. In that regard, think twice about what you are asking, even demanding, of God!

[Gail]

Quote:

And He should give me the desires of it when I pray regardless of the correct semantics.

Hmmm... I don't know if it is a case of semantics or what we are actually praying for.

I am so tempted to address the "He should give me..." part of your sentence, but I'm gonna bite my tongue on that. It's not for me to say what God should or shouldn't do.

I remember hearing a sermon on the "Give me the strength to..." prayers and how useless they are. I agree with you there.

[Bravus]

Convenient, isn't it. With impossibly high standards of what counts as 'known sin' placed before people, God has a convenient 'get out of jail free' card on having to follow through on his promises every single time...

(please note, this is a comment on people's *portrayal* of God, not God's own character)

[Woody]

I agree with you Gail. The "He should give me" was really a poor parrot of what I thought I was hearing. U know ... the 'just pray and it will happen' theory. That is what I deny.

[Gail]

Convenient, isn't it. With impossibly high standards of what counts as 'known sin' placed before people, God has a convenient 'get out of jail free' card on having to follow through on his promises every single time...

(please note, this is a comment on people's *portrayal* of God, not God's own character)

And there are many reasons why prayers don't get answered the way or the time we may want or feel we need.

I just finished reading (well 10 pages left) Oswald Chambers' book on Christian Disciplines. In it he dishes it out quite bluntly why prayers don't seem to get answered. When I read that I felt that this is maybe something that people who DO have recognizable answers could reply to better than the struggling one. Some of it has to do with experience and it's part of the growing we all do in God.

[Gail]

I agree with you Gail. The "He should give me" was really a poor parrot of what I thought I was hearing. U know ... the 'just pray and it will happen' theory. That is what I deny.

Just like the Uncle Arthur's storybooks...

Sometimes language just isn't adequate, is it?

[ClubV12]

Not impossible at all.

There is a HUGE difference between specific known sin and something you are struggling with, trying to understand, growing toward. That growth may take years, decades, but if you never change your path, you will reap your just rewards in the end. You KNOW in your own life what is and isn't a specific issue you have been convicted of and rejected and continue to reject.

Praying for help, while rejecting Him, is a sin of presumption.

Pray that your faith, tiny as a mustard seed, may grow. Ask first for the faith to accept the help to overcome that specific issue in your life.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Convenient, isn't it. With impossibly high standards of what counts as 'known sin' placed before people, God has a convenient 'get out of jail free' card on having to follow through on his promises every single time...

(please note, this is a comment on people's *portrayal* of God, not God's own character)

And there are many reasons why prayers don't get answered the way or the time we may want or feel we need.

I just finished reading (well 10 pages left) Oswald Chambers' book on Christian Disciplines. In it he dishes it out quite bluntly why prayers don't seem to get answered. When I read that I felt that this is maybe something that people who DO have recognizable answers could reply to better than the struggling one. Some of it has to do with experience and it's part of the growing we all do in God.

Well ... it is hard to compare apples to oranges. But, it (Prayer) should not be SO complicated. I was responding to the theory that all one has to do is to pray and this problem would be solved and victory would be won. But now it appears that perhaps it is not quite that easy.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

I agree with you Gail. The "He should give me" was really a poor parrot of what I thought I was hearing. U know ... the 'just pray and it will happen' theory. That is what I deny.

Just like the Uncle Arthur's storybooks...

Sometimes language just isn't adequate, is it?

Communication between humans is almost impossible.

But communication between humans on the internet IS impossible.

(Okay just slightly exaggerated for emphasis ! )

[Gail]

Quote:

Well ... it is hard to compare apples to oranges. But, it (Prayer) should not be SO complicated. I was responding to the theory that all one has to do is to pray and this problem would be solved and victory would be won. But now it appears that perhaps it is not quite that easy.

True... it can be as simple as a short, "Help!!"

But it depends what God is teaching you through the situation. Sometimes it takes a while to understand the wisdom of it all.

It would make a great study, if anyone's willing. I'd love to see what people could offer on the subject.

[Gail]

When you think about it, it's not really apples and oranges. It's what to do with lustful thoughts.

[Woody]

Quote:

Well ... it is hard to compare apples to oranges. But, it (Prayer) should not be SO complicated. I was responding to the theory that all one has to do is to pray and this problem would be solved and victory would be won. But now it appears that perhaps it is not quite that easy.

True... it can be as simple as a short, "Help!!"

But it depends what God is teaching you through the situation. Sometimes it takes a while to understand the wisdom of it all.

It would make a great study, if anyone's willing. I'd love to see what people could offer on the subject.

In this situation currently .... how would you suggest that someone pray? Is God not only able but 'willing' to give guys victory? If not ... why would He say ... "Oh wait till you are 30 or 60 or 70 ... perhaps THEN I will give you victory. Since the victory comes ONLY from Him ... why would He wish that we wallow in this situation for years on end ... if it is the desire of our heart NOT to as evidenced by our pleading for our powerful God to remove this?

[ClubV12]

Samson might be a good case study. A man of God to be sure, but lust was his continuing downfall,through out his entire adult life! I'll advised marriage's, seeking prostitutes, he indulged his passions for so long his conscience was seared.

God answered his final, heart felt, sincere, acknowleding his sin's, prayer. Being sorry for the results of sin doesn't cut it. Being sorry FOR sin is what it takes. The problem is of course, we like sin, we like it more than the cost of asking God for a new heart. Not "just asking", begging, sincerely, heart felt longing to be with God, even if that faith is so very tiny. Thats where the choice factor comes into play.

Samson was forgiven, but the impact, the consequences of his sin(s) remained. Blind, held captive, death and forgiveness was the answer to his prayer.

[Woody]

Quote:

Not "just asking", begging, sincerely, heart felt longing to be with God, even if that faith is so very tiny.

How many years of "begging" would you say is necessary?

[Bravus]

I dunno, Woody - seems like a foolproof scheme to me: if God fails to answer our prayers it's never, ever his fault, always ours.

(again, reflecting what people say, not what I believe to be the truth)

[ClubV12]

I suspect, in Samson's case, he never sincerely asked for a new heart, preferring the pleasures of sin for a season.

Then there is the case of Peter, the Apostle. He literally "walked with Jesus" for several years, you can't get any closer than that. But his conversion didn't take place until after Jesus was arrested, the chicken crowed three times and Peter used filthy language in denying he even knew the man! I think in Peter's case, he didn't fully realize his condition, thus, not feeling his need of repentenace never sought it in a sincere way. Sounds a lot like Laodecia, you think?

The point is, it DOES seem impossible at times when it comes to following all that we know, or have been told, or been beat over the head with, as "truth". But we can never give in to that thought, it IS POSSIBLE. How long will one walk with Jesus before a true conversion happens? I don't know... Perhaps a better question is, what will it take for someone to "wake up and smell the coffee"? When he is captive, blind and facing death? When he swears an oath that he does not even know the man? When your life, in hind sight, turns out SO bad, you are forced to acknowledge the wretched man (woman) that you are?

Better to be blind, captive, swearing, miserable and facing death than to be laodecia though!

I would rather be totally wretched and despised of men, spent, wasted, a goner than live a "nice life" where everything worked out fairly well and I was a "good person" that fell short of the glory of God.