Modesty - what do you guys think?

[Bravus]

These detailed rehearsals of gender stereotypes somewhat miss the point. Even if, in general, men are more visually oriented than women, people are diverse. There will be some men who are not as visually oriented and some women who are very much so.

Given that truth, framing this issue entirely as 'women must dress modestly to avoid tempting men' misses the point too.

A sensible approach (as I believe I said pages ago) has two parts:

1. Everyone ought to take responsibility for how s/he dresses

2. Everyone ought to take responsibility for his/her own reactions to what is seen

[CoAspen]

Yup...quite simple!!!

[Gerr]

Yup...quite simple!!!

Not as simple as you make it appear! What do women dress for?

[CoAspen]

Ask a women...wait a minute...it's already been done!!

Asked and answered!

Yup...quite simple!!!

[Bravus]

I'm not sure how:

1. Everyone ought to take responsibility for how s/he dresses

Doesn't already address the question of what women dress for...

[John317]

John, what I think you are saying that men are more aggressive in their pursuit of visual stimulation. While a man may pay to see exposed women, most women have the attitude that they can get a man to go along with what they have in mind pretty easily. Women simply aren't in the position where they would have to pay for it.

I think it's a mistake to conclude that men pay for sex because they are not in a position where they can get sex for free. Most of the men I'm talking about are married or in sexual releationships where they can get sex for free. So that is not the isssue.

Most men who go to bars to see "exposed women" have wives, just as the wives have their husbands, so it is not that men are unable to get sex partners without paying for it. A man's sex drive is different from womens. Men generally are interested in having more frequent sexual contacts and a greater variety of sex partners. (I'm not suggesting that all men fulfill their natural desires and interests. There are a variety of reasons-- social, moral, religious-- why many men don't act out these drives.)

It is common for many gay men to have 5 to 10 different partners in a single night, and they don't care if a single word is exchanged between them. They don't behave this way because they are gay but because they are males. They behave this way because unlike for women, sex for men in general is not primarily about a "relationship" or "committment" or even love. It is about the male brain and specifically the male hormones to which the male brain is exposed.

When men are given female hormones, it changes their thinking about sex and changes their behavior.

If you want some "science" to back this up, see the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Sex

Read part of the book, Brain Sex:

http://theabsolute.net/misogyny/brainsx.html

I'm not suggesting that the hormones excuse men's ugly, immoral behavior. I've seen men from both a man's viewpoint and from a woman's viewpoint. Men can control their behavior, especially when they allow God's Spirit to control them and change them. I'm merely showing that the hormones are the major influence in the difference between the way men and women relate to sex and sexuality, including the way they dress and how they feel about their own bodies and about the bodies of other people.

[doug yowell]

These detailed rehearsals of gender stereotypes somewhat miss the point. Even if, in general, men are more visually oriented than women, people are diverse. There will be some men who are not as visually oriented and some women who are very much so.

Given that truth, framing this issue entirely as 'women must dress modestly to avoid tempting men' misses the point too.

A sensible approach (as I believe I said pages ago) has two parts:

1. Everyone ought to take responsibility for how s/he dresses

2. Everyone ought to take responsibility for his/her own reactions to what is seen

Generalizations can be stereotypes that have their basis in facts. I believe that the discussion here has been assumed to be the generalization and not the exceptions. If exceptions were made the rule of judgment then how could anyone determine anything (i before e except after c)? 1) Everyone ought to take responsibility for how they dress? How does that avoid the ..."to avoid tempting men" point of the thread? If this point is so sensible (to which I concur)who or what is the dresser responsible to?

[doug yowell]

Originally Posted By: shelly

John, what I think you are saying that men are more aggressive in their pursuit of visual stimulation. While a man may pay to see exposed women, most women have the attitude that they can get a man to go along with what they have in mind pretty easily. Women simply aren't in the position where they would have to pay for it.

I think it's a mistake to conclude that men pay for sex because they are not in a position where they can get sex for free. Most of the men I'm talking about are married or in sexual releationships where they can get sex for free. So that is not the isssue.

Most men who go to bars to see "exposed women" have wives, just as the wives have their husbands, so it is not that men are unable to get sex partners without paying for it. A man's sex drive is different from womens. Men generally are interested in having more frequent sexual contacts and a greater variety of sex partners. (I'm not suggesting that all men fulfill their natural desires and interests. There are a variety of reasons-- social, moral, religious-- why many men don't act out these drives.)

It is common for many gay men to have 5 to 10 different partners in a single night, and they don't care if a single word is exchanged between them. They don't behave this way because they are gay but because they are males. They behave this way because unlike for women, sex for men in general is not primarily about a "relationship" or "committment" or even love. It is about the male brain and specifically the male hormones to which the male brain is exposed.

When men are given female hormones, it changes their thinking about sex and changes their behavior.

If you want some "science" to back this up, see the following links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_Sex

Read part of the book, Brain Sex:

http://theabsolute.net/misogyny/brainsx.html

I'm not suggesting that the hormones excuse men's ugly, immoral behavior. I've seen men from both a man's viewpoint and from a woman's viewpoint. Men can control their behavior, especially when they allow God's Spirit to control them and change them. I'm merely showing that the hormones are the major influence in the difference between the way men and women relate to sex and sexuality, including the way they dress and how they feel about their own bodies and about the bodies of other people.

Excellent and poignant post,John.

[Amelia]

Quote:

) Everyone ought to take responsibility for how they dress? How does that avoid the ..."to avoid tempting men" point of the thread?

I believe the original thought of female immodesty referred to low cut tops, short shorts, skirts and bikinis. But it has morphed as threads often do. My thought is that there is nothing a female can do with her dress when there are so many different perversions in the world.

[Bravus]

The point is that (1) women ought to take responsibility for how they dress to avoid tempting men, (2) men ought to take responsibility for how they dress to avoid tempting women, (3) women ought to take responsibility for their reactions to how men dress, (4) men ought to take responsibility for their reaction to how women dress.

The problem with the initial video, and much of the discussion, is that it focused on only one of these four dimensions. Balance is the issue.

[LifeHiscost]

Why is this thread still going on?

Hmm . . . sexuality and religion - they obviously make for interesting bed partners

Alex

I believe it to be very common that false religion more often than not, makes active sex a part of their permitted behaviors, at least for men. I do allow for those that make vows of chastity for the sake of a "pure" religion.

OTOH the jealousy of Lucifer was partly because Adam and Eve had been given the right of procreation of which he (Lucifer) was denied. His attack on one of the most beautiful of God's gifts, mutually to men and women alike, gave satan every excuse to try to destroy what he so actively desired for the building up of his own kingdom, and at the same time bring disrepute on the great I Am, Who would be made to appear as having given a faulty gift, and which without such gift, his own (satan's) kingdom would eventually die of neglect alone.

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."Isaiah 14:14 AMP

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Yep,men have been trying to get off the hook since Adam, always blame the women, how ever subtle it can be done. We are too weak to stay in control our selves.

Hockey puck.....stand up, be a real man and stop the blame game!!!!

God blesses!

[Guest]

Hockey puck? Can we use that kind of language here?

[LifeHiscost]

I did hear a story once about a woman that got drunk, invited a drunk guy over to her apartment, started making out with him and when he wanted more and she said no, he raped her.

"“Suppose a man meets a young woman, a virgin who is engaged to be married, and he has sexual intercourse with her. If this happens within a town, you must take both of them to the gates of that town and stone them to death. The woman is guilty because she did not scream for help. The man must die because he violated another man’s wife. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you.

“But if the man meets the engaged woman out in the country, and he rapes her, then only the man must die. Do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no crime worthy of death. She is as innocent as a murder victim."Deut 22:23-26 NLT

God blesses!

[Dr. Shane]

I believe the original thought of female immodesty referred to low cut tops, short shorts, skirts and bikinis. But it has morphed as threads often do. My thought is that there is nothing a female can do with her dress when there are so many different perversions in the world.

I don't think there is much a woman can do to keep men from lusting after her. However, she will be judged by others by the way she dresses. Assumptions will be made about her based on her dress. So it does benefit a woman to dress modestly even if that won't keep men from lusting after her because it will result in her being treated with more respect and more value being placed on her opinion.

[cricket]

Things that make you go, "Hmm":

"...it will result in her being treated with more respect and more value being placed on her opinion."

[shelly]

John, we will just have to agree to disagree. I think the "scientific" evidence you presented is more opinion presented in a scientifc manner than actual research. I tend to agree with the data that suggests that society creates the "hyper"visual environment that men find themselves in. They are constantly being stimulated and react to the heightened senses that have been developed by birth. Women who are now in environments whenre men are being objectified are beginning to catch up with the ability to be visually stimulated like their male counterparts. If it was simply biology, the last 15-20 years would not have marked an increase in the amount of women who are visually stimulated and who seek visual stimulation.

[John317]

... why can't people just let themselves come to terms with their feelings, and not have to blame their genetics for making them such depraved souls?

It's true that we have to come to terms with who we are and that means recognizing that only with God's Spirit can we NOT follow our desires and feelings.

I have come to terms with my natural, sinful feelings and desires. That means I don't allow my feelings and desires to determine my behavior. I reject them because I know that they are opposed to God and would not lead to real happiness.

But we have to realize that not everyone's feelings and desires are the same. Some people don't have such evil desires. On the other hand, many people's desires, if allowed to rule them, would cause them to do many evil, wicked things-- rape, murder, robbery, prostitution, whoredom, and every manner of self-destructive behavior.

The Bible is right when it says that the heart is exceedingly wicked far above anyone's ability to imagine. That's one reason why today there are thousands and thousands of people who end up murdered or missing every year. Most of the victims are women and children, and of course, most of the perpetrators are men-- men who haven't learned to control their feelings by submitting their lives to God.

[John317]

The point is that (1) women ought to take responsibility for how they dress to avoid tempting men, (2) men ought to take responsibility for how they dress to avoid tempting women, (3) women ought to take responsibility for their reactions to how men dress, (4) men ought to take responsibility for their reaction to how women dress.

Very good summary. I agree completely.

[John317]

John, we will just have to agree to disagree. ....

OK, that's fine. :-)

Originally Posted By: shelly

If it was simply biology, the last 15-20 years would not have marked an increase in the amount of women who are visually stimulated and who seek visual stimulation.

I didn't mean to give the impression that it is all biology. Environment is always a factor.

[John317]

... My thought is that there is nothing a female can do with her dress when there are so many different perversions in the world.

There are cases where men have seen a beauiful woman dressed seductively, (I mean showing off her buttocks and breasts) have followed her home or to a place where she is alone and have raped and murdered her. This happens more frequently than we want to realize.

Is the man at fault? Definitely. They are responsible and should be punished severely even if the woman was naked. But the fact is that those men would likely not have raped that specific woman if she had been dressed in a way that did not draw attention to her body. It's called flaunting.

I know what this is like because young, good-looking gay guys do it all the time when they want attention. They go to the beach or to the park wearing a "sexy" bathing suit, and lay down in certain positions, and within a very short time, they make contact with someone. The same thing happens in gay bath-houses. And sometimes rapes occur as a result of "flaunting." The rape wouldn't occur if the person hadn't been "teasing" and "flaunting." He was asking for it, but of couse that doesn't excuse the rape. But it does help to explain it, and it does show that people can do things to help avoid rape or mistreatment if they use good judgment or common sense.

A person may think that they have a right to dress a certain way, and of course they do, but should they? Is it the responsible or wise thing to do? And even more importantly, is it what God would have us do?

[Amelia]

(this is not dirested to GLG but for some reason this quick reply attached to her last post)

I was thinking more along the lines of the woman at the shoe store whos feet were fondled and licked by the salesman because of his fetish. She filed sex abuse charges with the police and the guy was later taken to court and then jail.

Or the women who are abused by cameras in dressing rooms and toilets.

The people who stick cell phones under womens skirts.

These are attacks and abuses that have nothing to do with the modestly of dress.

[John317]

Again, it's because men generally approach sex much differently than do women.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Not so differently, John. Man's approach: "knock, knock." Woman's approach: "Come in."

Yes, but there is this big difference: with men there aren't a lot of hoops one must jump through to get to "come in," whereas with women, there almost always are.

There are good reasons for this, but I'm just saying that women aren't as open to sexual activity as men are. It's one major reason many men (and I mean ones who are marrried to women) eventually get involved in having sex with other males, because if one wants to, one can easily find willing males, whereas it is always much more difficult to find women who are willing to have sex almost at the drop of a hat. Most women want to be sure of a relationship or of love or money or romance, etc., whereas men generally don't care a hoot about those things for the purpose of having sexual pleasure.

I think if people aren't able or willing to face the fact that women and men are fundamentally different when it comes to their approach to sex, they're not going to really understand each other, and such women in particular will likely have some painful, sad disappointments.

[Dr. Shane]

These are attacks and abuses that have nothing to do with the modestly of dress.

I think most of these fetishes turn most guys off. There are simply a lot of sick people out there and I think many forms of media today tend to feed their sickness. I agree entirely that women's dress has nothing to do with that.

Most men will turn their head and look at an attractive woman who is dressed trashy. Most men don't even notice a woman's shoes (it's a painful truth). Most men really do want women to shut the door when they use the toilet. Sex does not even enter the mind of most men when they do happen to see a pre-puberty girl naked. Violence and sex don't mix for most men. So while it is "normal" for a man to stare at some trashy-dressed woman, most of the fetishes are major turn-offs to the very same men.

[John317]

I was thinking more along the lines of the woman at the shoe store whos feet were fondled and licked by the salesman because of his fetish. She filed sex abuse charges with the police and the guy was later taken to court and then jail.

Or the women who are abused by cameras in dressing rooms and toilets.

The people who stick cell phones under womens skirts.

These are attacks and abuses that have nothing to do with the modestly of dress.

I agree that those things you mention here have nothing to do with modesty of dress. Women can't dress differently to keep ALL men from doing those things, but there is much that they can do to prevent the other kinds of things, which seem to me to be much more common.

The way a woman dresses and carries herself makes a lot of difference in how men think of them. If a woman isn't wearing tight clothes or exposing her breasts, most men won't consider her as a sex object, but if she dresses or behaves like one, that is how a lot of men will treat her. There are some women who want that, and many men assume that if a woman is dressed that way, she must want it. I know that's not true, but a lot of men think it is, so women should take that into account when they're deciding how to dress.