Moderators Bravus Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 The claim has been made in another thread that the Bible is against the writing of fiction. Evidence please. Truth is important
Woody Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I don't have any. Quite the opposite. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 That is probably based on the understanding that the Bible is opposed to lies, and fiction, of course, is a lie, and very good lies if it's at all well written. Usually the better the lie, the greater it is said to be. (Two of the greatest in all the world are the Brother's Karamazov and War & Peace.) The Bible teaches that all "liars" will be lost (Rev. 22: 15), and it says we are to think on "whatsoever things are true..." But my view is that whether fiction is sinful depends on its purpose and the type of fiction it is. For instance, Pilgrim's Progress is fiction that teaches good moral and spiritual lessons. The same may be of the Faerie Queene by Spenser and of Paradise Lost by John Milton. Ellen White is not our role-model, but she collected and published fictional, true-to-life stories for children which taught wonderful lessons. Even the Bible itself contains some fiction, that is, in the form of parables, but the important point is that those stories portray life the way it really is and they help to teach high moral values. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 12, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 Agreed on all the last part of your post. On the 'fiction is a lie' thing, which I agree is the foundation of the claimed Biblical objections, I disagree with that. A lie is intended to decieve. A lie is only successful if people believe it is true. Fiction, on the other hand, is intended to be believed to be fictional. It serves its purposes with art and skill, but no-one thinks the Mona Lisa is a photograph. No-one thinks a novel is a true story, so a novel is not a lie. As has been said, fiction writing, like any skill or talent, can be used for good or evil. But the same is true for absolutely everything in life, and if we avoided entirely everything that had ever been used for evil we would be left in a state of paralysis. No posts so far from either of the people who made the original claim... Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted April 12, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 Reductio ad absurdem: - Fiction is lying - Lying is sin - Jesus told parables - Parables are fiction - Jesus sinned - No-one is saved (please look up the Latin term if you don't understand it) Truth is important
aldona Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I think the anti-fiction people are confusing "truth" with "fact". Something can be 100% true - such as a news report dealing with murder, rape and other violent acts - and yet be unhelpful and unedifying as reading material for Christians, and promote values which are out of line with the TRUTH we believe. On the other hand a piece of literature may be imagined, and yet teach principles and values which are beneficial and uplifting. (The "Anne of Green Gables" series that I grew up with springs to mind.) I have always had a lively imagination and when I was younger, I would often make up complicated stories and sagas in my head. (I still do occasionally, if I have enough time to sit still). Having read some choice quotes from Ellen White and the anti-fiction brigade, I lived in constant fear that God would strike me down and/or sternly demand an account from me on the judgement day for daring to indulge in such a heinous sin. What good is the imagination that God gave us, if it is a sin to use it? AJ www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first!
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 On the 'fiction is a lie' thing, which I agree is the foundation of the claimed Biblical objections, I disagree with that. A lie is intended to decieve. A lie is only successful if people believe it is true. Fiction, on the other hand, is intended to be believed to be fictional. It serves its purposes with art and skill, but no-one thinks the Mona Lisa is a photograph. No-one thinks a novel is a true story, so a novel is not a lie. All the best writers of fiction will tell you it's lies. Just because they tell you on the dust-jacket of a book that it's "fiction" doesn't mean it's not lies or deceptive. Even a book labeled fiction can be deceptiive and full of lies because much of it may actually be true, and the writer's intention is to get people to believe his lie is real life. I'm not talking about the names of people and of every event in the narrative, but of the values and philosophy of the narrator. Also, the best fiction sucks readers into a make-believe world and causes them to suspend their belief in the truth. Truth and fiction are usually intermingled so that one really never knows what's true and what's not. Young people in particular are very suseptable to the lies of fiction. Many a young person has been led into sin by the reading of fiction. Why? Because fiction almost always romanticizes sin. I speak from experience, having consumed fiction from about the age of 13 to just a few years ago. I still have a large room full of it, but I seldom get away from the Fourm long enough to read it anymore. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Quote: Reductio ad absurdem: don't know what that means .... but it is beautiful. heading off to ask Textus Receptus what Reductio ad absurdem means. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I'm staying out of this one, I'm causing enough heat in other threads that I don't need to help burn this one down either. :)
Woody Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 I'm staying out of this one, I'm causing enough heat in other threads that I don't need to help burn this one down either. Hey ... we love heat. Jump in the oven with us. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 What good is the imagination that God gave us, if it is a sin to use it? There's nothing wrong with using one's imagination. But a lot of the use of the imagination today is devoted to creating evil, i.e., evil protaganists, anti-heroes, & sinful situations that are thoroughly enjoyable. A very large shrare of the entertainment industry focuses on sinful things. To see this, all one needs to do is go to book stores, theaters, movie rentals, etc. Entire genres are based on horror, killing, sexual immorality, etc. There are a lot of "good" books, too, but they generally aren't the best sellers or the ones selected for basing films on. Unfortunately, they are also usually not the best written. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Quote: . Unfortunately, they are also usually not the best written. Well then ... that can be a direct challenge to IreneFaye. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 Ah, come on-- join in the fun, why dontcha. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 Who's IreneFaye-- a writer of "good" books? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 12, 2011 Posted April 12, 2011 Who's IreneFaye-- a writer of "good" books? I don't know any IneneFaye. But I do know a good writer by the name of IreneFaye. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 12, 2011 Moderators Posted April 12, 2011 Many of the most skillful writers of fiction study and practice long and hard to be able to combine truth and fiction so that their reader doesn't know which is which. Truman Copote "invented" the non-fiction novel, which Norman Mailer continued to experiment with. The writer's whole purpose is to convince the reader that he's reading straight reporting. Many of the writers of the 19th century did the same thing, particularly those of the realist school of fiction: Turgeniff, Tolstoy, Flaubert, Stendhal, Balzac, Proust, Twain, & Stephen Crane. Dreiser, Lewis, F. Scott Fitzgerald, John Dos Passos, Issac Babel, and Ernest Hemingway did the same in the 20th century. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 13, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 There is a difference between verisimilitude and truth, and novelists typically strive for the former. I like aldona's distinction between truth and fact, too. Truth is important
Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Quote: verisimilitude Bravus I don't know what has gotten into you today. But, you have thrown more big words at us. I DON'T Know what verisimilitude is. And I suspect a mulititude of others don't. Please explain. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Members phkrause Posted April 13, 2011 Members Posted April 13, 2011 Bravus I don't know what has gotten into you today. But, you have thrown more big words at us. I DON'T Know what verisimilitude is. And I suspect a mulititude of others don't. Please explain. Woody didn't he say that he was going to take a few classes this semester? Well I'd say he's learned some new words and is throwing them at us. :) phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Moderators Bravus Posted April 13, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 Hehe, sorry! Verisimilitude just means 'seeming true'. A novel needn't *be* made up of facts - if it was it would be a non-fiction recounting of a story. But it needs to seem true if it is going to feel real to us, and it needs to do that to achieve its purposes of entertaining us, teaching us and making us think. My PhD thesis in education included a 30,000 word 'novel' about teaching in a particular school. I changed names and details for ethical reasons, and made up dialogue, so it wasn't non-fiction, but it was true. It was based in my actual experiences teaching in a particular school. It also needed to 'seem true': the accounts of teachers teaching and students learning (or not) in classrooms that I concocted had to feel like reality to teachers in order to serve their purposes. *My* purpose was not to deceive, but to illuminate, and it's in that sense that fiction is not a lie. A lie is something intended to deceive. Truth is important
Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Woody Bravus I don't know what has gotten into you today. But, you have thrown more big words at us. I DON'T Know what verisimilitude is. And I suspect a mulititude of others don't. Please explain. Woody didn't he say that he was going to take a few classes this semester? Well I'd say he's learned some new words and is throwing them at us. Yes pk. I think it's a conspiracy. I am suspecting it's Australian words he's throwin' at us. I never hear no 'merican speakin' that way. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 13, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 'Verisimilitude' is an old one from the aforementioned PhD thesis, and I don't mean to throw out big words, I just try to choose the perfect one for the job. (psst - you're on a computer, using a browser, and there are dozens of dictionaries a click away ) 'Reductio ad absurdem' I actually learned from my 17 year old law student daughter. It just means to argue a case by taking it to its logical, but absurd, conclusion. In this instance the logical conclusion of the idea that fiction is lying is that Jesus sinned, which is obviously absurd. Truth is important
IreneFaye Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Well, I sense the need of me to jump in this side. Before you heat this things up, you should ask your self, what's Fiction, and what's nonfiction? Let's start here, and then connect it to your thought. What my thought about fiction: It's something that's not fact, but not literary means it's not true NonFiction: It's what they called Facts, it's happen and everyone know that it's happening. So, Bible and Fiction: Bible is what I called the TRUTH. It was written by a lot of writer, and consist of facts. You couldn't say that Luke was lying when he write about, Jesus telling the people about some story. Coz it's the fact, and that was true. But Jesus telling fiction to the people? I'd say that's true too, but Jesus didn't basscaly lying. Don't you guys read the bible, it's written in there the meaning of Jesus's story. There's truth hidden in the fiction, so did you guys as a Christian who believe in God, and Jesus, dare to say that Jesus is lying???
Moderators Kevin H Posted April 13, 2011 Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 In our libaries and White Estate vaults there are papers and articles studying Mrs. White and the popular novels, SPECTRUM had a fantastic article from the 1970s. Mrs. White was one of several literary figures, including Nathaniel Hawthorn and Herman Melvill, who were critical of "Fiction" which was applied to a certan type of popular press in her day, mostly the dime novels and these have developed into much of today's novels and movies and soap operas. Often it is noted that a tradition has developed on the Mrs. White qotes about novels and fiction that have ended up having traditional Adventists exclude writings that Mrs. White had no problems with, and include as good reading some of the writings that Mrs. White had in mind when she wrote. R. Lynn Sauls, who was an English Professor at AUC tells how he would at times go to a church and read to the congragation two stories and ask their opionions on them. They usually loved the one and hated the other. For the story they hate there were often comments upset that he would read that story on the Sabbath of all days, but that the story should not be read any day of the week and quote Mrs. White in their criticizisms of the story. Dr. Sauls would then point out how the story they liked was one that Mrs. White specifically criticized, and that the story they hated and kept quoting Mrs. White's words to criticizise was one that Mrs. White thought was an excellent story to read and think about on Sabbath.
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