The Bible and Fiction

[John317]

You make a great point. She was talking about people who were spending lots and lots of money for bicycles and also spending lots of their time riding or racing.

They should have been spending that money and time in spreading the gospel to their neighbors and friends and around the world. We have the same problem today. What we spend our time and money on will tell a lot about what's really important to us.

[John317]

I confess to a theological bias of being in favor of the Bible and of Ellen White's books-- all of them. I don't see any reason not ot be.

Originally Posted By: Woody

I didn't know we were discussing the reliability of the Bible here.

At least part of the discussion deals with whether the Bible agrees with what Ellen White taught on the reading of fiction.

Also, we're discussing whether the Bible teaches us God's will in regard to the kinds of things we should fill our minds with. I don't think there's any doubt that if we search for it, God will lead us to find what we're looking for on this topic.

Do you believe that there's a contradiction between the Bible and Ellen White's teachings on this subject?

I don't think there is at all. I think there's complete agreement, actually. That doesn't make me real happy, though, because I have spent all of my life since I was a teen-ager (except for the last year or so) reading fiction, and I still have literally a ton of novels in my house. Many of them cost me $50.00 a book.

In all honesty, then, I would prefer to find that Ellen White and the Bible don't condemn the reading of fiction at all. But--would I be right? And could I honestly write fiction with God's blessing?

I would like to see Bravus (or anyone else for the matter of that) write a good biblical defense of the reading and writing of fiction, and show that I have been wrong.

A very close friend of mine that I grew up with has been teaching literature (basically fiction)during the last 30 years at La Sierra SDA academy in Southern California. When he began teaching there, I asked him about the apparent conflict between reading fiction and the counsels found in Ellen White's writings. That was before I studied literature at Cal State U., but literature had been my major for one quarter while at Pacific Union College, so I've been thinking about these questions for a very long time. I'm going to ask him the same question next time I see him.

[John317]

Thank you John for telling us about your rebellious past, I find that very interesting.

So many youth die during their rebellion. I thank God He kept me alive and opened my eyes.

[John317]

Ellen White knew what she was talking about.

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

So where is the source for 'thousands' in the loony bin because of fiction reading! Everyone is still continuing to ignore that statement she made. Is that what everyone believes...just because she said it?

I would like to see the answers that other people on the Forum offer you. I wonder if Bravus and Woody and IreneFaye agree with you.

If you had been living in the 1860s and 1870s when Ellen White said smoking was bad for your health, would you have needed documenation before you believed her and threw away your cigarettes? How about when Ellen White said that the brain has electric currents, before it was proved? Would you have believed her?

I'm unashamed to say that I've studied her enough to know she can be trusted, even when there is no documentary proof that she is right. I've found the same to be true of the Bible.

You have to decide if God's prophet and the Bible are trust-worthy. If she or the Bible are not worthy of your trust, what good are they? If they contain falsehoods and are full of inaccuracies, then throw them out.

[John317]

Head banging against wall......

Are you still doing that? You really should stop it. It can scramble the old noggin.

[skyblue888]

I find, like the bible, you have to look at the big picture when analyzing any given EGW quote. Is it consistent with other principles she writes about? I rarely see a quote that isn't in harmony with the bulk of her work as it concerns principles and basic concepts. In my relative short experience it seems pretty rare to find an EGW quote that is not consistent with the principles she lays down.

Like the infamous and oft quoted "don't buy a bicycle" quote that everyone thinks they need to put in "context" of the time and the expense and all that. It doesn't need a context of "time". The quote remains valid today when you understand the principle's upon which it is based! It fits perfectly with thrift vs extravagance, out ward show, adornment, stewardship, to name a few. Don't buy a carbon fiber, top of the line, 25 speed, $10,000 bicycle for a Sunday afternoon ride in the park. Now if you have a valid reason for such a purchase and that reason fits with other principles, no problem.

...which is a bit problematic for my custom car that mostly sits in the garage and only comes out for a Sunday afternoon cruise through the park. When I look at it now, it's starting to look more and more like that really expensive "bicycle" she was talking about.

Right on! That makes a lot of sense.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Head banging against wall......

Are you still doing that? You really should stop it. It can scramble the old noggin.

May be with a good hard hat he might be able to keep it from scrambling! hehehe

[Woody]

Quote:

Once again, with cautions, I am supportive of compilations and believe that Woody is a bit extream on this point. However I want to agree with this particular posting here.

I'm sorry ... but have you actually sat down and read the Index? It is pretty worthless unless you actually read the references. You don't even get complete sentences in the Index. You can get a totally false idea of what our prophet is saying. I would never recommend the Index except as a tool to look up the actual quote. The fragmented partial sentences as I stated are worthless unless you look up the quote.

If ClubV actually read the Index ... he would declare it against the law.

[ClubV12]

Actually, I have scanned over the index. I find it very helpful when assembling my own compilations to get the big picture on a subject.

One of the books I was looking at while considering compilations is Elder Daniels Rightousness by Faith. It's a well written book, boy, I sure hope I don't find out later it's been largely shunned by most modern SDA's as being inadequate to the subject!

I also really enjoyed "Sketches from the life of Paul", only to find out later that is a controversial book. I'm hesitant to recommend it to anyone now, which is to bad because it certainly has value.

It was a bit discouraging to see the controversy surrounding Daniel and the Revelation as well. But thankfully the issues have been well explained regarding it.

It's a shame really, this hesitation and confusion all these various conflicts over EGW books cause. It makes me more determined than ever to be a strong supporter of her work.

[Woody]

Quote:

I find it very helpful when assembling my own compilations to get the big picture on a subject.

Oh NO!!! Not MORE compilations. As if we don't have enough of them. No wonder more and more people are getting a false idea of our prophet.

Forgive me for being a 'purist' but I value the 'actual' words of our prophet in their original context and intent.

[skyblue888]

"The testimonies themselves will be the key that will explain the messages given, as scripture is explained by scripture." 1 S.M.42.

Does not that suggest that we are to compare statement with statement? And if so, a good compilation will follow this principle of interpretation. Yes? No?

sky

[Woody]

Sky. You must read the entire testimonies in their context.

[John317]

It's a shame really, this hesitation and confusion all these various conflicts over EGW books cause. It makes me more determined than ever to be a strong supporter of her work.

Fortunately, I don't believe we would be justified in thinking that the Forum is representative of the SDA church as a whole.

[John317]

Quote:

Once again, with cautions, I am supportive of compilations and believe that Woody is a bit extream on this point. However I want to agree with this particular posting here.

I'm sorry ... but have you actually sat down and read the Index? It is pretty worthless unless you actually read the references. You don't even get complete sentences in the Index. You can get a totally false idea of what our prophet is saying.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that people ought to stop with a look at the Index without reading the references. But the point is that if a person reads the things in the Index on a particular subject, he will get a pretty good sense of what she says on the topic.

An even better way to study a topic, though, is to use the Comprehensive Research Edition CD-ROM of the Ellen G. White Writings. I just bought it a few weeks ago for only $20.00 and find it's a marvellous research tool. All you have to do is type in a subject and you get back everything she said on that topic, and in context, too. It contains many writings not found in the printed volumes of the Index.

[ClubV12]

So, Woody, it sounds like I should put off publishing my first compilation on bicycles?

...and I was going to send you a draft for peer review, oh well.

Ha Ha Ha

[skyblue888]

[Gail]

Yes, now's a good time to get one

[John317]

John can you order it for me? hehehe

In all of my years I have never used a cd-rom for her writings.

Are you near an ABC?

You'lll be glad you have this great study tool. It contains a very interesting interview with J.H.Kellogg and many other articles from the early days of the church.

You really ought to come down here to Loma Linda sometime so we can do some research together at the Estate branch here and talk over some important topics. I would give you my copy of the CD-ROM just for making the trip, and my wife would make you a really great Mexican dinner besides.

[Bravus]

I would like to see Bravus (or anyone else for the matter of that) write a good biblical defense of the reading and writing of fiction, and show that I have been wrong.

That's actually vey easily done. The Bible, and Jesus' own teaching, is *full* of fiction: parables and allegories. Unless you believe the stories of the lost sheep, lost coin, Good Samaritan, and so on and so on were all recountings of actual events, and unless you believe the rich man was alive in hell, you have to acknowledge that the Bible uses 'fiction' to teach. And I'm happy to do and advocate doing what Jesus did.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

John can you order it for me? hehehe

In all of my years I have never used a cd-rom for her writings.

Are you near an ABC?

You'lll be glad you have this great study tool. It contains a very interesting interview with J.H.Kellogg and many other articles from the early days of the church.

You really ought to come down here to Loma Linda sometime so we can do some research together at the Estate branch here and talk over some important topics. I would give you my copy of the CD-ROM just for making the trip, and my wife would make you a really great Mexican dinner besides.

No John, I don't live near where there is an ABC. Hey, I might just take u up on that, as far as coming to Loma Linda for a visit. That would be cool. Would love to taste that Mexican food! Thanks for the invite. I will let you know if ever I am coming your way!

Yes Gail, it's time for me to get one.

sky

[ClubV12]

I plan on getting one soon myself. I recently helped a fellow church member install it on her computer. There were a few glitches during the install and it wasn't as easy (at least on HER system) to install as I had anticipated.

[John317]

I would like to see Bravus (or anyone else for the matter of that) write a good biblical defense of the reading and writing of fiction, and show that I have been wrong.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

That's actually vey easily done. The Bible, and Jesus' own teaching, is *full* of fiction: parables and allegories. Unless you believe the stories of the lost sheep, lost coin, Good Samaritan, and so on and so on were all recountings of actual events, and unless you believe the rich man was alive in hell, you have to acknowledge that the Bible uses 'fiction' to teach. And I'm happy to do and advocate doing what Jesus did.

We've already been over that aspect of fiction. I said at the very beginning that not all fiction is wrong, nor is all reading of fiction wrong.

Ellen White herself collected fiction for children for the purpose of teaching good lessons.

However, that is not a contradiction of what Ellen Whote wrote elsewhere about the reading of fiction. The mere fact that the Bible and the Gospels contain some fiction, in the form of parables and allegories, is hardly a defense of all fiction and novels. Clearly not all fiction is good for Bible-believing followers of Christ to read. So the question becomes, what fiction is in harmony with the Bible?

[John317]

OK, sky. That would be outstanding.

[Kevin H]

John and Sky, when I was in Loma Linda I came across a good recording on Ellen White and Literature in the audio video part of the libarary, I came across it when I was borrowing and listening to the Graham Maxwell tapes they had there.

[John317]

Do you remember who the speaker(s) on the tape was? Were those tapes of Maxwell's talks at the Loma Linda University Church? They sometimes have talks at the church there on art and literature, usually during the Loma Linda Art Festival.