The Bible and Fiction

[skyblue888]

I see your point Sky.

Well, that what's John does, it's his modus operandi, I'll just have to get used to it I guess. Sometimes there are some real gems in there, but granted, you might have to dig deep to get to them.

It all depends how it is done. I don't mind a couple statements together or three if they are not too long, especially when we are debating or discussing with those who are very sensitive to us quoting Ellen White and not the Bible.

You are right there may be some real gems but most of us won't even bother reading if there are too many to read, especially when there is hardly any interest from the opposing party to read even just a few of them.

sky

[skyblue888]

Don't paint this as opposition to Ellen White. It's not.

This thread was opened to test the claim that the Bible condemns fiction. That is its purpose.

Given that we're many pages and dozens of posts in with zero evidence presented, I think we can say pretty conclusively that:

The Bible does not condemn fiction

Who says?

Can you prove by quoting the Scriptures only that it doesn't?

sky

[John317]

I post for all the visitors that come to the forum, not only for the ones who are posting. These threads are read by hundreds and sometimes thousands of people who don't ever post anything.

[skyblue888]

Of course, John, we all know that but does that mean that we have to be insensitive to those with whom we are debating?

sky

I think it is a good idea to take into consideration who is involved in the discussion. I am sure the thousands who are only reading will be able to appreciate our efforts.

We can all learn from our mistakes. In the past I may not have been as sensitive as I should have been about this but it is never too late to learn.

[Bravus]

Quote:

Who says?

Can you prove by quoting the Scriptures only that it doesn't?

Now you're just being silly. Can you prove by quoting Scripture that you are not a pink unicorn? Can't easily prove a negative...

But I don't have to. The burden of proof lies with the ones who made the claim in the first place.

Fiction is not lying. But saying the Bible condemns fiction when it doesn't *is* lying. And the Bible has plenty to say about lying.

[CoAspen]

Catch 22, you are damned if it doesn't or damned if it does....according to some!

(Still waiting for a source for the 'thousands' being in the 'loony bin' because of fiction.)

Haven't you learned, bravus, it is what EGW says! After all, some here say we can not understand the Bible with out her. One might think the the Holy Spirit is of no avail. Hmmm

[John317]

The Bible does not condemn fiction

Would you also say the same about evolutionary theories?

Or homosexuality?

I believe the principles of the Bible do not harmonize with the habit of reading fiction and novels, particularly with the large amount of time that many people-- including myself-- have devoted to it.

Everything that could come under the label of fiction is not wrong to read, though.

Here are some Bible principles to apply:

1) Philip. 4:8

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

2) Does the work of fiction (including plays and poems) glorify or romanticize sin and evil? (A large portion of fiction does this.)

3) Matthew 5:27-28

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' [28] But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

NOTE: Does the work of fiction stimulate people to think sinful thoughts?

4) Rev. 22:15

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

NOTE: Does the work of fictionencourage people to love reading about immorality, murder, idolatry, and falsehood?

5) Does the reading of novels and fiction take up a lot of our time that we would be better off using to do the works of God?

The Bible teaches that we will have to give account to God for the way we have used our talents, including our time.

6) 2 Tim. 2:22

So flee youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

7) 1 Thes. 5:22-23

[22] Abstain from every form of evil.

[23] Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8) Col. 3:17

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

[Woody]

Good avice Woody, you might ask yourself that very question! Are you, causing someone to stumble in your quest to deny the power of the plain speaking prophet on the subject of fiction? Be not a false sympathizer. Counsel does not often "tickle one's ear", it is hard to hear, hard to bear. And yet it is given in love so that we are aware and may avoid the pitt falls and snares that are set before us.

While it may be hard to see the wisdom in counsel that asks us to modify or even give up that which we cherish, it is given for our benefit. We can fight it, ignore it, condemn it and weaken it and never find the peace that God wants us to have concerning it. But when we surrender our will to His, only then, in time, will we see the beauty of it and praise God for enlightening and saving us from ourselves.

I tell you, when it began to dawn on me that racing my car was not compatible with spiritual growth, for me, it was a very hard saying. I did NOT want to hear it! To date, it is the hardest thing I have had to do. Initially I found plenty of reasons why it didn't apply to me, plenty of ways to justify it. But the Holy Spirit wouldn't let it go. The Holy Spirit WILL let it go, if you persist in having your own way long enough though! You will get that which you beg and long and dwell over long enough.

Since you desire to make this personal I would refer you to what I stated at the beginning of this thread. I don't like fiction. I never have enjoyed reading it. I simply don't read it except for some of the thoughts expressed here. I am not tempted in the slightest towards it. But I DO respect the right of others to do so when it is not prohibted by our prophet or the Word of God. However ... one wil not understand Sister White or scripture unless one considers time and space and culture and context.

[Bravus]

The claim was not 'the principles of the Bible do not harmonize with the habit of reading fiction'.

Here's an example from the 'Fantasy Writer' thread:

Even Ellen White wrote at length upon the dangers of fiction, if her words interest you. But the Bible is plain enough.

Can't spot it now, but I recall someone suggesting using a concordance to see what the Bible says about fiction.

I'd like to see you make your case for the statement above, John317. The evolution and homosexuality arguments are more complex, and we've been through them before, but the Bible does speak on creation and sexuality. It is silent on fiction, and it uses fiction.

Not sure how someone gets from there to claiming it condemns it.

[skyblue888]

Quote:

Who says?

Can you prove by quoting the Scriptures only that it doesn't?

Now you're just being silly. Can you prove by quoting Scripture that you are not a pink unicorn? Can't easily prove a negative...

But I don't have to. The burden of proof lies with the ones who made the claim in the first place.

Fiction is not lying. But saying the Bible condemns fiction when it doesn't *is* lying. And the Bible has plenty to say about lying.

It was reported that one day a well known French philosopher asked a little boy if he could prove to him that God existed and the little boy replied by saying, Can you prove that He does not exist?

I have asked you to prove that the Bible does not condemn fiction but u can't. I do believe that it does. It should not be too difficult to show. I will get back to you on this. Give me some time.

sky

[Woody]

Quote:

(Still waiting for a source for the 'thousands' being in the 'loony bin' because of fiction.)

Look CoA ... it's very simple. There was no "I was shown" prior to that statement so She is off the hook.

[Bravus]

Waiting patiently... You'd think it was a pretty simple request for the 'People of the Book' to back up their claims from ... 'The Book'.

(TIC thought that just occurred to me: maybe some people's Bibles don't have just 66 books, they have 166...)

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

The Bible does not condemn fiction

Would you also say the same about evolutionary theories?

Or homosexuality?

I believe the principles of the Bible do not harmonize with the habit of reading fiction and novels, particularly with the large amount of time that many people-- including myself-- have given to it.

One can go overboard on ANYthing and spend to much time on it. But applying that excuse to our pet projects of hatred will not bring light to ANY subject.

[Woody]

Quote:

I have asked you to prove that the Bible does not condemn fiction but u can't. I do believe that it does. It should not be too difficult to show

No matter what you bring ... is will not be in the correct context I can guarantee you. Because -

The BIBLE USES it Folks

[Woody]

Quote:

TIC thought that just occurred to me: maybe some people's Bibles don't have just 66 books, they have 166...)

You undervalue her ... try 1166

[skyblue888]

The word "fiction" may not be found in the Bible anymore than the word "millienium" or "merits of Christ" etc etc but that does not mean that it is not there by implication.

Even before I begin searching, this passage comes to mind:

"Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in His law doth he meditate day and night." Psalm 1:1,2.

How much time does one have to read fictitious tales, novels, etc etc if he is meditating day and night in the law of the Lord, meaning all of Scriptures?

hehe

And John317's last post gave some more passages that by implication should discourage us from reading fictitious tales, raising serious questions.

[Bravus]

Lots of circular reasoning that assumes fiction is bad and then links it to Scriptural condemnations of things that are bad... but begs the question.

And lots of concentration on bad fiction, when the question is about all fiction, and the focus (based on IreneFaye's original post) is about good fiction.

Of course there's bad fiction, just like there's bad language. Doesn't mean we eschew all language.

[John317]

Fiction is not lying. But saying the Bible condemns fiction when it doesn't *is* lying. And the Bible has plenty to say about lying.

—Antonym of "fiction" is "fact."

--Antonym of lying is telling the truth.

--Synonyms of fiction is "a made-up story," "a story that has no basis in reality."

The dictionary definition of fiction:

Quote:

–noun

1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, especially in prose form.

2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.

3. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health.

4. the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.

5. an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.

6. Law . an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist, made by authority of law to bring a case within the operation of a rule of law.

...—Synonyms

3. fable, fantasy. Fiction, fabrication, figment suggest a story that is without basis in reality. Fiction suggests a story invented and fashioned either to entertain or to deceive: clever fiction; pure fiction. Fabrication applies particularly to a false but carefully invented statement or series of statements, in which some truth is sometimes interwoven, the whole usually intended to deceive: fabrications to lure speculators. Figment applies to a tale, idea, or statement often made up to explain, justify, or glorify oneself: His rich uncle was a figment of his imagination.

Here's what Ellen White has written about the influence of reading fiction:

Quote:

Fiction and Sensual Thoughts.--The mental food for which he [the fiction reader] has acquired a relish is contaminating in its effects, and leads to impure and sensual thoughts. I have felt sincere pity for these souls as I have considered how much they are losing by neglecting opportunities to gain a knowledge of Christ, in whom our hopes of eternal life are centered. How much precious time is wasted, in which they might be studying the Pattern of true goodness.--CTBH 123, 1890. (MYP 280.) {1MCP 111.1}

Fiction Creates an Imaginary World.--You have indulged in novel and story reading until you live in an imaginary world. The influence of such reading is injurious to both the mind and the body; it weakens the intellect and brings a fearful tax upon the physical strength. At times your mind is scarcely sane because the imagination has been overexcited and diseased by reading fictitious stories. The mind should be so disciplined that all its powers will be symmetrically developed. . . . {2MCP 591.1}

If the imagination is constantly overfed and stimulated by fictitious literature, it soon becomes a tyrant, controlling all the other faculties of the mind and causing the taste to become fitful and the tendencies perverse.-- 4T 497 (1881). {2MCP 591.2}

Reading Affects Brain.--I am personally acquainted with some who have lost the healthy tone of the mind through wrong habits of reading. They go through life with a diseased imagination, magnifying every little grievance. Things which a sound, sensible mind would not notice become to them unendurable trials and insurmountable obstacles. To them life is in constant shadow.--CTBH 124, 1890. (FE 162, 163.) {2MCP 591.3}

Seeing Corrupts the Imagination.--This is an age when corruption is teeming everywhere. The lust of the eye and corrupt passions are aroused by beholding and by reading. The heart is corrupted through the imagination. The mind takes pleasure in contemplating scenes which awaken the lower and baser passions. These vile images, seen through defiled imagination, corrupt the morals and prepare the deluded, infatuated beings to give loose rein to lustful passions. Then follow sins and crimes which drag beings formed in the image of God down to a level with the beasts, sinking them at last in perdition. {2MCP 591.4}

Avoid reading and seeing things which will suggest impure thoughts. Cultivate the moral and intellectual powers. Let not these noble powers become enfeebled

592

and perverted by much reading of even storybooks. I know of strong minds that have been unbalanced and partially benumbed, or paralyzed, by intemperance in reading.--2T 410 (1870).

Ellen White knew what she was talking about.

[Bravus]

Bible

[skyblue888]

Bravus, Are you suggesting, as an SDA, that the Bible and The Testimonies are at variance?

[Woody]

Bible

For some Bravus ... doing that would be weaning them off other authors. And for them that is Anathema.

[ClubV12]

Woody, I didn't mean to make anything "personal", I'm just carrying on a conversation on the subject and was addressing one of your comments.

Like I'm about to do with,

Bravus, in case you might have missed my earlier post about what EGW has to say about "good fiction". Here it is once again.

"Even fiction which contains no suggestion of impurity, and which may be intended to teach excellent principles, is harmful. It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought; it unfits the soul to contemplate the great problems of duty and destiny." Ministry of Healing, page 446

Otuside of EGW being a prophet or a quote lead like, "I was shown...", even if it is soley her opinion, her counsel remains worthy of consideration. This from an author who has written extensively on a wide variety of subjects and carries a substantially impressive "resume". She is clearly a well read, well learned and intelligent author. I wouldn't be so quick to declare her counsel off base.

From a strictly scientific or medical view,,,

Reading fiction:

"It encourages the habit of hasty and superficial reading merely for the story. Thus it tends to destroy the power of connected and vigorous thought."

Sounds like, a reasonable medical hypothesis to me.

[Woody]

If we MUST use other authors:

Quote:

"There are works of fiction that were written for the purpose of teaching truth or exposing some great evil. Some of these works have accomplished good." CT 383

[John317]

I'd like to see you make your case for the statement above, John317. The evolution and homosexuality arguments are more complex, and we've been through them before, but the Bible does speak on creation and sexuality. It is silent on fiction, and it uses fiction.

Not sure how someone gets from there to claiming it condemns it.

I don't believe that the Bible condemns all reading of all fiction per se.

Of course the Bible is silent on "fiction." It is also silent on TV and on smoking and a host of other things. But the Bible contains principles that if applied to our lives will help direct us in the way God wants us to go.

Apply the following Bible principles to the reading of fiction.

1) Philip. 4:8

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.

2) Does the work of fiction (including plays and poems) glorify or romanticize sin and evil? (A large portion of fiction does this.)

3) Matthew 5:27-28

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' [28] But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

NOTE: Does the work of fiction stimulate people to think sinful thoughts?

4) Rev. 22:15

Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

NOTE: Does the work of fiction encourage people to love reading about immorality, murder, idolatry, and falsehood?

5) Does the reading of novels and fiction take up a lot of our time that we would be better off using to do the works of God?

The Bible teaches that we will have to give account to God for the way we have used our talents, including our time.

6) 2 Tim. 2:22

So flee youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

7) 1 Thes. 5:22-23

[22] Abstain from every form of evil.

[23] Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8) Col. 3:17

And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Here's what Leo Tolstoy, author of War and Peace and perhaps the world's greatest writer of fiction, had to say in the latter part of his life:

Quote:

"Several times I read the dramas and the comedies and historical plays [of William Shakespeare], and I invariably underwent the same feelings: repulsion, weariness, and bewilderment. At the present time, before writing this preface, being desirous once more to test myself, I have, as an old man of seventy-five, again read the whole of Shakespeare, including the historical plays, the "Henrys," "Troilus and Cressida," the "Tempest," "Cymbeline," and I have felt, with even greater force, the same feelings,—this time, however, not of bewilderment, but of firm, indubitable conviction that the unquestionable glory of a great genius which Shakespeare enjoys, and which compels writers of our time to imitate him and readers and spectators to discover in him non-existent merits,—thereby distorting their aesthetic and ethical understanding,—is a great evil, as is every untruth.

Tolstoy gave up the writing of fiction because of concerns about its moral/spiritual values and his conviction that they were lies.

When I was 16 year old, I read the statements of Ellen White in the book Messages To Young People. I had seen them before, since our family had worship twice a day as I was growing up, and we often read her writings during that time. But I didn't follow her counsels.

Quite the contrary. I loved fiction. By the time I was 18, I had read many of the major fictional works of Dostoevsky, Maugham, Twain, Henry James,Isaac Babel, Gorki, Hemingway, and Guy de Maupassaunt, as well as much of Nietzsche, the father of modern atheism. Not infrequently I even played hooky from school in order to read these great books. I continued reading them, and many more, right up to just a few years ago.

But now I know how true Ellen White's counsels are, and I wish I had listened to them a long, long time ago. I know I wasted years-- I figure about 25, at least--- reading those things.

[ClubV12]

Talk about taking something out of context!!!

Here's what was posted just above:

"There are works of fiction that were written for the purpose of teaching truth or exposing some great evil. Some of these works have accomplished good." CT 383

Sounds good, right? Look again, a little deeper this time.

Here is the very NEXT SENTENCE in that quote:

"Yet they have also wrought untold harm." CT 383

And here then is the quote in it's entirety:

"There are works of fiction that were written for the purpose of teaching truth or exposing some great evil. Some of these works have accomplished good. Yet they have also wrought untold harm."

Leaving out that last sentence entirely removes the context of the quote! Not cool.