Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Quote: it's not a good idea, since Mrs. White work had been cooked Good thoughts. You have your head on straight. and in American lingo ... that's considered a compliment :) May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 And btw, about sticking on Mrs. White work for my writing, err ... it's not a good idea, since Mrs. White work had been cooked, it's not a raw material anymore. I've posted the raw material, along with the references,and you can look it up in the original writings if you want to. There's nothing that I quoted that is saying something that it isn't saying in the original. But what do you mean by "cooked"? Do you mean you believe someone has changed the wording and that it no longer says what Ellen White intended it to say? In regard to the quotes by her on fiction, what evidence do you have that your claims are true? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 compilations are certainly 'cooked' in my book. peoples here didn't like that I quoted an incomplete quote that in someone's views made it say something they didn't approve of. Our biases certainly can show with compilations. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
IreneFaye Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: IreneFaye And btw, about sticking on Mrs. White work for my writing, err ... it's not a good idea, since Mrs. White work had been cooked, it's not a raw material anymore. I've posted the raw material, along with the references,and you can look it up in the original writings if you want to. There's nothing that I quoted that is saying something that it isn't saying in the original. But what do you mean by "cooked"? Do you mean you believe someone has changed the wording and that it no longer says what Ellen White intended it to say? In regard to the quotes by her on fiction, what evidence do you have that your claims are true? No, no, no, no you get it all wrong. Cooked is a term I used for something that had been well written. You couldn't change it or take it for your work without permission anymore. Bible, consist of story plot (this is what I called raw material). Raw material is something that you call inspiration. So I'd say, I can't stick on Mrs. White works for my work, coz it'll be called plagiarism. I'm still learning, if I stick on someone work too long, my writing style will change to be like them, and well ... nobody wants to be called unoriginal.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Quote: You couldn't change it or take it for your work without permission anymore. But this is exactly what compilations DO. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Woody, let me make this VERY personal AND public. You didn't just post an incomplete quote. You purposely left out the ONE critical sentence that entirely changed the meaning of the authors words. You knew exactly what you were doing, and frankly, it was cold blooded and unethical. It was, by anyones definition a LIE. If you were working for any reputable news or magazine company you would likely be fired for such a gross miss handling of testimony.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 I'm glad you noticed ClubV. For it is exactly what compilations do. Just depends upon which side of the fence you might be sitting on. But as the compiler which is what I was ... I can compile as I wish. You and others many wish I quote the entire chapter ... but as a comipler ... the compiler has total control of how much he piles on. Now after that ... does anyone want to read such piles again? As I said before ... I piled it the way I piled it for a reason. Hope U get it. <smile><smile> May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 No it is NOT what compilations do. They arrange quotes on a particular subject without TWISTING and LIEING as to what the author's intended statement was about. If you were testifying in court and made this quote: "There are works of fiction that were written for the purpose of teaching truth or exposing some great evil. Some of these works have accomplished good." CT 383 BUT LEFT OUT THIS CRITICAL NEXT SENTENCE, you could be convicted of CONTEMPT and sent to jail. "Yet they have also wrought untold harm." CT 383 What you have done here is very serious my friend, you have purposely twisted what the Lords prophet has said into a lie. The bible is very specific about how people should and shouldn't deal with HIS prophets.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 welcome to the world of compilations friend. It is done all the time on this forum and will continue to be done. It is part of the SDA world of compilations. It's part of our fabric. Hope you have learned a valuable lesson. It's simply a matter of perspective and personal opinion. That is what we debate here. Calm down. For you will see much more of it. Mostly coming from your side if I must be frank. I did it solely for illustrative purposes. Just wait till you see it done on your side for theological reasons. Then I hope you will speak up. I must say ... you fell hook line and sinker. Hope you can recover. Did you really think I thought that someone would not come by and finish the quote? Hey ... I've posted here enough to know better. Appreciate your help. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
SivartM Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 I've been studying fiction for over 40 years and got my degree in it at California State University. I'm currently tutoring literature online in a course on Great Books. Aren't you a freshman at Andrews? Oh, sorry, I'll just shut up. "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Can you show a couple of examples of Mrs. White's compilations made by the Ellen white Estate, in which changes have been made so that the statement no longer means what it did in the original? Or in which the context of the statement shows that the original meant something different than what's found in the compilation? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Can you show a couple of examples of Mrs. White's compilations made by the Ellen white Estate, in which changes have been made so that the statement no longer means what it did in the original? John. I've been here long enough and have had enough conversations with you to know that you've declared that all compilations are holy and accurate. But it comes down to a theological opinion. And there is no way I could begin to change your theological bias. So, I will not start. I've shown these before and you have rejected them. I doubt that you have changed much. And your post was quite narrow in it's scope. What about all the other conservative compilations not given the stamp of approval by the White Estate. Are you defending them also? Wow. There are some real wild one's out there. Yet they get published. And no ClubV ... instead of being against the law ... the law supports it. :) May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I've been studying fiction for over 40 years and got my degree in it at California State University. I'm currently tutoring literature online in a course on Great Books. Aren't you a freshman at Andrews? Oh, sorry, I'll just shut up. I'm sorry you got treated in such a horrible way SivartM. Please ... do stay and voice your insights. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Can you show a couple of examples of Mrs. White's compilations made by the Ellen white Estate, in which changes have been made so that the statement no longer means what it did in the original? John. I've been here long enough and have had enough conversations with you to know that you've declared that all compilations are holy and accurate. But it comes down to a theological opinion. And there is no way I could begin to change your theological bias. So, I will not start. I do believe all of them are good and useful, yes. I confess to a theological bias of being in favor of the Bible and of Ellen White's books-- all of them. I don't see any reason not ot be. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Quote: I do believe all of them are good and useful, yes. I confess to a theological bias of being in favor of the Bible and of Ellen White's books-- all of them. I don't see any reason not ot be. I didn't know we were discussing the reliability of the Bible here. But yeah ... I knew you thought all of the EGW books favored your theological bias. I've heard that frequently. I've seen the way you prove that and don't exactly approve of what you do to our Ellen Whiteology. My point is that I would not trust ANYbody who claims to know all of EGW or who thinks that all of EGW agrees with their personal bias. I for one don't have all truth and I appreciate others who have the same realization. But then to each his own. OR hers. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
skyblue888 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Apologies to Bravus: I don't want to stop your questioning post but..... What does any of this have to do with preventing another person from taking their 4 children and driving off into a river, with only one survivor, as happened in upstate New York. There is so much pain and suffering in the world right outside our back door, what are going to do to change that? Is our message to the world, reading fiction will put you in an asylum or do we tell people about the saving grace of Christ and their eternal life available with him? What we have going through out these forums is a constant attempt at being equal to the Religious leaders of Christs day. Truth! We wouldn't know the truth if it hit us in the face! Why, we would rather argue about what people are doing or not doing. There has not been a compelling reason to read EGW given in these forums for a long time, abuse, abuse and more. Shame on us all. Not one appeal for anyone to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance! Shame-Shame! Now back to your regular *&)9&^%%$#^$@!78 programing! Sorry CoAspen, but I have to disagree with you on this. There have been many threads presenting the truths for this time in clear, distinct lines. You must have missed out on them or may be these truths have hit you right in the face and you did not know anything about it. sky "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Head banging against wall...... CoA ... did I convert you into Head Banging instead of Head Slapping? Wow. One just never knows the impact that he might hvae here. Praise God. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 But yeah ... I knew you thought all of the EGW booksfavored your theological bias. I've heard that frequently. I've neither said this nor thought it. I don't consider whether a passages agrees with me, nor do I reject something she says merely because I don't find myself immediately in agreement with it. I didn't used to like or agree with what she said about the reading of fiction. I thought I knew better. As a teen-ager, in high school, I use to hate "old lady White" and make fun of kids who were reading Steps to Christ. But I was wrong. I've changed my mind completely. So, yes, now I do believe that we need to study all of her writings and that we shouldn't get rid of any of them. I don't believe we should reject any of them, including the compilations. I don't try to make her writings agree with me but rather I attempt to conform my thinking and practices to what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy say. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 I never stated we should get rid of ANY of EGW's writings. I want them there for all to see. But for sure we need to understand them. And compilations not overseen by EGW are not her writings. They belong to the compiler. The words are hers but the out of context format is not. It's just like what I see here. Words out of context and incomplete thoughts and messages. A little here and a little there. What we need to do is to understand what SHE meant ... not what some other person thinks she meant. I've even see in this thread people stating that context is not needed to understand our prophet. IOWs ... you can produce a little here and a little there ... incomplete sentences and paragraph ... all because she supposedly can stand alone and context is not needed. What I've witnessed is a "If she said it I believe it" mentality. But what they are really falling for is if they 'think she said something they believe it'. And usually they 'think' it if it fits their theological bias. Sad but true. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 "There is so much pain and suffering in the world right outside our back door, what are going to do to change that?" Since you asked, (and please don't think I'm blowing my own horn here). As for myself, I was able to share the basic gospel message with three people today, one of whom I had never met and two of whom I had met briefly before. One lady is homeless, I had given her a Steps to Christ some time ago and was following up on how she was doing (not well, she is terribly depressed over being homeless). Yet, she has put up barriers that make it impossible for her to receive greater blessings. She is headed down a path that will surely result in worse than she is experiencing now. Another had called the church before and requested some help getting her SUV running, it was broke and so was she. It broke down again, so I fixed it again. I had a nice chat with her mother, who was very impressed by what the church was doing to help her daughter. They have both shown a keen interest in the christian life. I will follow up with both of them soon. They have put themselves in a position to receive greater blessings from God by being open to His Holy Spirit. Perhaps, the mother who drove her children into the river could have benefitted from a visit by a christian worker? But some choose a path that makes it all but impossible for the Lord or his workers to help them. They place themselves outside of Gods care by choosing their own path and rejecting blessing received. Such are left to beat upon the rocks of despair until they go crazy and/or do something really really stupid. You do what you can, the results are in Gods hands...
skyblue888 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: Woody But yeah ... I knew you thought all of the EGW booksfavored your theological bias. I've heard that frequently. I've neither said this nor thought it. I don't consider whether a passages agrees with me, nor do I reject something she says merely because I don't find myself immediately in agreement with it. I didn't used to like or agree with what she said about the reading of fiction. I thought I knew better. As a teen-ager, in high school, I use to hate "old lady White" and make fun of kids who were reading Steps to Christ. But I was wrong. I've changed my mind completely. So, yes, now I do believe that we need to study all of her writings and that we shouldn't get rid of any of them. I don't believe we should reject any of them, including the compilations. I don't try to make her writings agree with me but rather I attempt to conform my thinking and practices to what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy say. Thank you John for telling us about your rebellious past, I find that very interesting. "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
Moderators Kevin H Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Irene, my suggestion would be that you turn to the Comprehensive Index to the Writngs of E.G. White and look up "Fiction" sky Reading out of context tid bits would only be a dis-service. IreneFaye - I would stick with the Bible. Once again, with cautions, I am supportive of compilations and believe that Woody is a bit extream on this point. However I want to agree with this particular posting here. While bluesky's suggestion is a good starting point, it is sadly horribly insufficient. Otherwise the people who read what Mrs. White had to say would find it easier to pick the stories she would accept or reject than we end up doing. I mentioned how R. Lynn Sauls would go to churches and read two stories and ask the congragation's opinions and how time after time those who read the comprehensive index and embrased Mrs. White's words on fiction and memorized many of the quotes used them to condem stories that Mrs. White liked and approved of, while they tended to support and enjoy and have praises for stories that Mrs. White condemns. And there have been similar studies done with the same results (John, the sources besides Dr. Sauls have been other English teachers and professors speaking in sermons and classroom lectures I've heard, and as I said you can find some pretty good papers written and in storage in our libraries on Mrs. White and the Popular novel and some of them referred to similar studies). We Seventh-day Adventists, even though we read Mrs. White's words, tend to read into her words ideas that does not fit her practice and the historical context. We need to read the comprehensive Index but also read some of these papers. The article from the 1970s in SPECTRUM is VERY well worth our reading and is a published source besides the other papers that are laying around in our libraries. This is a serious issue for us as Mrs. White was trying to warn us, however we have missed the point and Satan has us in danger of embrasing what she is warning us against and rejecting writings that would not bother her. Bluesky, why would you saythat there is such a tendency to read her words but tend to missapply them to the wrong groups of books? Also a second problem is that many people who today we would consider novelists and writers of fiction, such as Nathaniel Hawthorne and Herman Melville, shared the same words and warnings about "fiction" and "Novels" that we find in Mrs. White's writings were they condemning their life work or did Hawthorne, Melville, and White read different mental pictures to those words than we do as we read their words?
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Reductio ad absurdem: - Fiction is lying - Lying is sin If you don't believe fiction is lying, then you have an argument with the following people, all of whom know their buiness of writing fiction very, very well. Here are statements on fiction by very well-known writers of fiction, one of whom won the Nobel prize for literature and another who was the greatest writer of fiction who ever lived, the author of War and Peace: Albert Camus, winner of the Nobel Prize For Literature: “Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth.” Stephen King: "Fiction is a lie, and good fiction is the truth inside the lie." Mark Twain: “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth isn’t.” NOTE: Twain says fiction is not truth. If it isn't truth, what is it? Leo Tolstoy, probably the world's greatest novelist, called fiction "evil... untruth," which is the same as a lie. (Toward the end of his life, he repented of having written his fictions.) There's a book on the teaching of fiction-writing titled, The Lie That Tells a Truth: A Guide to Writing Fiction http://www.amazon.com/Lie-That-Tells-Truth-Writing/dp/0393057518 The greatest and best writers of fiction use story-telling as illustrations of what they consider truth. So the best novels and short stories (as well as plays and poems) are concerned very much with issues of morality or "manners." I started studying and writing fiction myself in 1966, working at the newspaper and taking classes in Writing For Publication at a Junior College. I was a junior at Loma Linda Academy at the time (when I attended classes there, that is). I spent most of my school days in the University library or at the book stores reading fiction or doing the same while walking the rail-road tracks. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 I find, like the bible, you have to look at the big picture when analyzing any given EGW quote. Is it consistent with other principles she writes about? I rarely see a quote that isn't in harmony with the bulk of her work as it concerns principles and basic concepts. In my relative short experience it seems pretty rare to find an EGW quote that is not consistent with the principles she lays down. Like the infamous and oft quoted "don't buy a bicycle" quote that everyone thinks they need to put in "context" of the time and the expense and all that. It doesn't need a context of "time". The quote remains valid today when you understand the principle's upon which it is based! It fits perfectly with thrift vs extravagance, out ward show, adornment, stewardship, to name a few. Don't buy a carbon fiber, top of the line, 25 speed, $10,000 bicycle for a Sunday afternoon ride in the park. Now if you have a valid reason for such a purchase and that reason fits with other principles, no problem. ...which is a bit problematic for my custom car that mostly sits in the garage and only comes out for a Sunday afternoon cruise through the park. When I look at it now, it's starting to look more and more like that really expensive "bicycle" she was talking about. :)
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