Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Quote: "Good avice Woody, you might ask yourself that very question! Are you, causing someone to stumble in your quest to deny the power of the plain speaking prophet on the subject of fiction? Be not a false sympathizer." When one uses anothers' name and uses the word 'you' ... one is making it 'personal'. When you ask said person 'Are you, causing someone to stumble'? U are making it 'personal'. Webster: Quote: per·son·al[pur-suh-nl] Show IPA –adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or coming as from a particular person; individual; private: a personal opinion. 2. relating to, directed to, or intended for a particular person: a personal favor; one's personal life; a letter marked “Personal.” 3. intended for use by one person: a personal car. 4. referring or directed to a particular person in a disparaging or offensive sense or manner, usually involving character, behavior, appearance, etc.: personal remarks. 5. making personal remarks or attacks: to become personal in a dispute. 6. done, carried out, held, etc., in person: a personal interview. 7. pertaining to or characteristic of a person or self-conscious being: That is my personal belief. 8. of the nature of an individual rational being. 9. pertaining to the body, clothing, or appearance: personal cleanliness. 10. provided for one's discretionary use: Employees are allowed 15 vacation days and two personal days. 11. Grammar . a. noting person: In Latin portō “I carry,” -ō is a personal ending. b. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of the personal pronoun. 12. Law . of or pertaining to personal property: personal interests. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 OK, I was making it personal then!!! Guilty as charged. Just like I would if we were sitting down at a table and I was responding specifically to a comment of yours and addressing you, instead of Sky or Bravus or whoever else might there. So,,, are you? As it pertains to the original question. Asked in love and it does not require an answer.
Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Quote: Leaving out that last sentence entirely removes the context of the quote! Not cool. Wait just a second. I thought we were told that she could stand without "context". I thought we were playing by YOUR rules that context was not important. That our prophet could stand on her own without worrying about 'context'. Which is it? I am confused. I tried to play by the rules established and I get THIS. I am confused. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Now you KNOW what I'm talking about!!! Leaving out a CRITICAL to the quote sentence is out of bounds. It's no different than taking a portion of a bible verse and building your case on it by cutting the verse short. Doing so, as in this case, substantially alters the meaning and thought of that quote. The press does that all the time, they call it "sound bites". Fox is particularly good at it. Stating a fact, twisted in such a way as to deliver a different meaning than the speaker intended.
Moderators John317 Posted April 13, 2011 Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 Good point. Why would anyone do that, I wonder? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Good point. Why would anyone do that, I wonder? Yep. Some times fiction can make a good point. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators Bravus Posted April 13, 2011 Author Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 Bravus, Are you suggesting, as an SDA, that the Bible and The Testimonies are at variance? I'm stating that any belief that cannot be established sola scriptura is not a doctrine, it's an opinion. Truth is important
ClubV12 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 There is a good lesson here with this quote. When I first read it IMMEDIATELY I became suspicious because it was not in harmony with what I know EGW has to say about fiction. It just didn't "fit" with larger picture. We do that with all types of things we read, hear, see. We just get a feeling it doesn't fit, it's lacking harmony, something is wrong. This is an excellent example of a manipulated quote cut short to deliver the exact opposite of what the author was trying to say! When our knowledge is based on PRINCIPALS we are much more likely to "smell" bad stuff when it comes around, even if we can't quite put our finger on it.
ClubV12 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I found the bible verses that John posted to be right on target and in full harmony with what EGW has to say on the subject of fiction, Bravus, (if I can make it "personal"). :)
SivartM Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 —Antonym of "fiction" is "fact." --Antonym of lying is telling the truth. --Synonyms of fiction is "a made-up story," "a story that has no basis in reality." If we're talking about literature, that is not true; the antonym of fiction is nonfiction, not fact (nonfiction is not always factual, obviously, but the writer thinks it is). Obviously if someone is telling a story, they do not intend for people to take it as "fact" like the periodic table, but they are not lying either. Fiction is also firmly based in reality; if we couldn't relate to it at all, we wouldn't read it. That's why stories were invented, and they were invented long before Ellen White or the Bible. I'd much rather read a well-written story than a completely factual description. Compare a historical novel vs. Wikipedia on the French Revolution. Or consider the many biblical narratives that are being published by Adventist publishers, which aren't supposed to replace the story but imaginatively supplement it. "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
ClubV12 Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 "I'd much rather read a well-written story than a completely factual description." Well of course you would, which is why EGW has so much to say on the dangers of "light reading". :)
Woody Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 I found the bible verses that John posted to be right on target and in full harmony with what EGW has to say on the subject of fiction, Bravus, (if I can make it "personal"). Cool. Your personal comments are improving. At least they are no longer accusing people of being a false sympathizer or causing others to stumble. Keep up the good work. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
CoAspen Posted April 13, 2011 Posted April 13, 2011 Quote: Ellen White knew what she was talking about. So where is the source for 'thousands' in the loony bin because of fiction reading! Everyone is still continuing to ignore that statement she made. Is that what everyone believes...just because she said it?
Moderators John317 Posted April 13, 2011 Moderators Posted April 13, 2011 The title of the thread is not 'Ellen White and Fiction'. These pages of Ellen White quotes are off-topic. For Seventh-day Adventists, Ellen White is not off topic when discussing Bible truth. The Bible does contain principles that are opposed to the reading of most fiction. However, that doesn't mean everyone is going to see it, just like not everyone can see the Bible's evidence for the Sabbath or for many other clear Bible doctrines. If people were really studying the Bible and following its counsels, God wouldn't have had to raise up Ellen White as His last-day prophet. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Quote: Ellen White knew what she was talking about. So where is the source for 'thousands' in the loony bin because of fiction reading! Everyone is still continuing to ignore that statement she made. Is that what everyone believes...just because she said it? Good Points CoA. But I suspect that the silence will remain deafening. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
SivartM Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 "I'd much rather read a well-written story than a completely factual description." Well of course you would, which is why EGW has so much to say on the dangers of "light reading". What is light reading? A children's story? An elementary physics textbook? A heavy novel? Ulysses? An English Bible is lighter reading than an Arabic Qur'an. Ellen White is lighter reading than a book on systematic theology. Maybe we should only read primary scientific texts... "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 "Light reading",,, FICTION. Sorry Woody, truly I am, but the question remains for you to answer in your heart because the subject matter is serious. Are you? I have no doubt there are thousands "in the loony bin" because of fiction reading. Why? Because the prophet said so,,, done! I'm at peace with it and I take her warning seriously. Seriously enough to warn others of the danger, the snares they face. And this fiction thing isn't only about reading and writing. TV and movies have to be included as far more insidious than a book!
CoAspen Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Apologies to Bravus: I don't want to stop your questioning post but..... What does any of this have to do with preventing another person from taking their 4 children and driving off into a river, with only one survivor, as happened in upstate New York. There is so much pain and suffering in the world right outside our back door, what are going to do to change that? Is our message to the world, reading fiction will put you in an asylum or do we tell people about the saving grace of Christ and their eternal life available with him? What we have going through out these forums is a constant attempt at being equal to the Religious leaders of Christs day. Truth! We wouldn't know the truth if it hit us in the face! Why, we would rather argue about what people are doing or not doing. There has not been a compelling reason to read EGW given in these forums for a long time, abuse, abuse and more. Shame on us all. Not one appeal for anyone to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance! Shame-Shame! Now back to your regular *&)9&^%%$#^$@!78 programing!
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 —Antonym of "fiction" is "fact." --Antonym of lying is telling the truth. --Synonyms of fiction is "a made-up story," "a story that has no basis in reality." If we're talking about literature, that is not true; the antonym of fiction is nonfiction, not fact (nonfiction is not always factual, obviously, but the writer thinks it is). I've been studying fiction for over 40 years and got my degree in it at California State University. I'm currently tutoring literature online in a course on Great Books. Aren't you a freshman at Andrews? Here are statements on fiction by very well-known writers of fiction, one of whom won the Nobel prize for literature: Albert Camus: “Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth.” Stephen King: "Fiction is a lie, and good fiction is the truth inside the lie." Mark Twain: “Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; truth isn’t.” Leo Tolstoy, probably the world's greatest novelist, called fiction "evil... untruth," which is the same as a lie. (Toward the end of his life, he repented for having written fiction.) There's a book on the teaching of fiction-writing titled, The Lie That Tells a Truth: A Guide to Writing Fiction http://www.amazon.com/Lie-That-Tells-Truth-Writing/dp/0393057518 The greatest and best writers of fiction use story-telling as illustrations of what they consider truth. So the best novels and short stories (as well as plays and poems) are concerned very much with issues of morality or "manners." John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 Please somebody please tell me why there is fiction in the Bible if our prophet is so opposed to it. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
ClubV12 Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 We already covered that Woody, early on in this thread.
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Not all fiction is bad or evil. Ellen White collected and published some fiction for children, but they were life-like stories that teach good morals and lessons. Pilgrim's Progress is fiction, but it is an allegory that teaches Bible truths. John Milton's great epic poem-- the greatest epic poem in the English language-- is a fiction: Paradise Lost. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 So now we are going back to the fact that there is good fiction. I thought we had that settled prior to the most latest onslaught of EGW quotes which stated something entirely different. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Posted April 14, 2011 Here are statements on fiction by very well-known writers of fiction, one of whom won the Nobel prize for literature: Albert Camus: Fiction is the lie through which we tell the truth. Stephen King: "Fiction is a lie, and good fiction is the truth inside the lie." What Camus and King say here is illustrative of how almost all writers of fiction think of their art or skill. For them, the story is "true" in the sense that their lies teach "truths." But what "truths" do those lies teach? The answer is that for the most part, the "truth" in any given novel is the writer's subjective view of life-- their philosophy, if you will-- which in itself is often actually a lie that readers accept as the truth. That is one of the dangers of fiction. In other words, the reader can accept a lie without realizing it, even as he thinks the whole time that of course he knows it's all a made up story. People's views of truth and reality are subtly influenced in this way. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
IreneFaye Posted April 14, 2011 Posted April 14, 2011 WOW, the things I've missed while I go to my bed trying to catch up with my rest time (timeline different). Last time I'm here this thread only consist of 3 Page and now that I'm back it's already have 13 pages? I'm lost, but seeing that we're talking about EG White, I'll say ... err, since when that Mrs. White came to the topic? @Woody: about the thing you said to me in the third page, I'd say. Thanks don't worry I'm a very forgetful person ahahaha, so I forgot what I'm offended about already And btw, about sticking on Mrs. White work for my writing, err ... it's not a good idea, since Mrs. White work had been cooked, it's not a raw material anymore. I'm sticking on the bible because it consist of raw material, there're a lot of raw story there (that only consist on character and what happend to them--it's like a plot of story), but Mrs. White work is already a book. If I stick to it, it'll be like I'm copying her work, and it'll be againts my writing policy. Now, can I ask you, how far had we go in this thread?
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