Does God ever not keep His promises?

[Woody]

Quote:

When God does appear to keep his promises, it's easily explained because God keeps his promises.

LOL. That statement certainly doesn't apply for me. The above EGW quotes are very clear that if we don't obey His Commandments ... that our prayers will NOT be answered.

No matter what the appearances are .... He will not keep promises for me because they do not apply for someone who doesn't obey.

I am happy for others. No matter what He keeps His promises for them. But according to our prophet ... He will not do that for me.

[Igakusei]

Quote:

When God does appear to keep his promises, it's easily explained because God keeps his promises.

LOL. That statement certainly doesn't apply for me. The above EGW quotes are very clear that if we don't obey His Commandments ... that our prayers will NOT be answered.

No matter what the appearances are .... He will not keep promises for me because they do not apply for someone who doesn't obey.

I am happy for you. No matter what He keeps His promises for you. But according to our prophet ... He will not do that for me.

Well practically speaking, at least, it seems like we're on the same page for once :)

[Overaged]

From our prophet:

"If we live according to His word, every precious promise He has given will be fulfilled to us. We are undeserving of His mercy, but as we give ourselves to Him, He receives us. He will work for and through those who follow Him. {MH 226.3}

But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises. ... If we render to Him only a partial, halfhearted obedience, His promises will not be fulfilled to us.' Ellen White in MH 227

Personally I don't qualify for any of His promises.

Unfortunately, my good friend; these quotes do not provide us with Bible evidence of what you are saying.

These are the kind of quotes that get easily used way out of context. Therefore, there is no proof yet in this thread that God doesn't/can't keep all His promises. While I don't have time just now to get into details; I would challenge anyone following this thread to think this through a little.

1/ are we going to use two isolated quotes from Ellen White as Bible to "prove" that God does not/cannot keep His promises?

2/ do we just follow along with the scientists method of saying, "well, people succumb to all these things God says He will protect us from all the time?"

Are there not other possibilities here?

I would say a little more, but I am truely out of time here, so I will have to come back to this...might be a day or two. God bless Woody!

[Woody]

Never said He doesn't keep His promises. I stated that according to EGW ... His promises do not apply to me because I do not have perfect obedience to all His commands.

[Overaged]

But I am saying NOT according to Ellen G White, unless we use those quotes out of context as "Bible" to "prove" the point you make.

[Woody]

Quote:

are we going to use two isolated quotes from Ellen White as Bible to "prove" that God does not/cannot keep His promises?

I think we have more than "two isolated quotes". Here are just a few of them many. If one reads EGW as a whole - I think in much of her writings ... the theme is consistant. If you need more than these "isolated" quotes ... let me know.

"But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises. ... If we render to Him only a partial, halfhearted obedience, His promises will not be fulfilled to us.' Ellen White in MH 227

"Precious promises are upon record on condition of our obedience to God's requirements." {RH, January 28, 1875 par. 16}

"The promise of God to us is on condition of obedience, compliance with all His requirements"..... CH 377

All the promises of God are on condition of obedience to Him. {LYL 83.1}

There is a class who say, "I believe, I believe," and lay claim to all the promises which are given on condition of obedience; but they do not the works of Christ. God is not honored by any such faith. It is spurious. {OHC 119.4}

"These promises of God to his people were on condition of their obedience. If they would serve the Lord fully, he would do great things for them. After Moses had received the judgments from the Lord, and had written them for the people, also the promises, on condition of obedience, the Lord said unto him, "Come up unto the Lord ..." {1SP 239.2}

"God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part." {RH, January 14, 1873 par. 10}

"God chose Israel as his people, and gave them gracious promises on condition of obedience. He faithfully performed his promises." {ST, October 15, 1896 par. 1}

"It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional." {Ev 695.1}

"God's promises are conditional." {PCP 25.5}

[Overaged]

Oh; I see. So this is a lets pick on Ellen White thread. The quotes you provide are individual sentences, small paragraphs, lifted out of their intended context. They only appear to "prove" your point because of how you posted them. Anyone can do that. Proving it is quite another thing.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

There are homes for the pilgrims of earth. There are robes for the righteous, with crowns of glory and palms of victory. All that has perplexed us in the providences of God will in the world to come be made plain. The things hard to be understood will then find explanation. The mysteries of grace will unfold before us. Where our finite minds discovered only confusion and broken promises, we shall see the most perfect and beautiful harmony. We shall know that infinite love ordered the experiences that seemed most trying. As we realize the tender care of Him who makes all things work together for our good, we shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. . . . {AH 542.2}

[Woody]

With all respect due overaged ...

Quoting the entire chapter or book will not help. I've read the books. It is what it is. I don't know how one can refute the clear word of our prophet. I see you quoting sentences or paragraphs from our prophet. Why do you do it but when I do it ... it is not acceptable.

Hey ... I see people here quoting her all the time. Why all of a sudden we need to quote entire pages for her clear words to be clear. It is what it is.

But if you want to bring the entire books here for us to read and somehow come to another conclusion that what she consistantly states ... bring it on.

And no this is not picking on EGW ... it is trying to consider her clear words. And I've yet received an answer other than what she states. Well I have been told to ignore her and just focus on the Love of Jesus. I suppose I can do that.

BTW ... do not focus your search on "broken promises". I will repeat that this is NOT the issue. The issue is that the promises do not apply to me because I do not perfectly obey His commands.

Let me add another:

"If we are unfaithful stewards of earthly things, how can we expect Him to entrust us with the things of heaven? It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer." {COL 144.4}

She further states that before the church prays for a sick person ... they must check and find out if that person is a tithe payer.

"We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church."--U. T. {HL 237.4}

"Whenever God's people, in any period of the world, have cheerfully and willingly carried out His plan in systematic benevolence and in gifts and offerings, they have realized the standing promise that prosperity should attend all their labors just in proportion as they obeyed His requirements. When they acknowledged the claims of God and complied with His requirements, honoring Him with their substance, their barns were filled with plenty. But when they robbed God in tithes and in offerings they were made to realize that they were not only robbing Him but themselves, for He limited His blessings to them just in proportion as they limited their offerings to Him." 3T 395

[Overaged]

I am glad being friends doesn't mean we can't challenge one another!

I didn't really say "my quote is better than your quote." I was trying to point out how we all tend to isolate quotes and make them say things they don't quite say.

For eg, if you take and combine quotes you dig up, and quotes that I dig up, then you have a more likely context for those quotes. I am not talking about numbers of pages included in the quote.

I think it's clear that when the quotes/contexts are combined, Ellen White's writings do not tell us that God cannot keep His promises.

(ill be back in a couple days)

[Woody]

Quote:

Ellen White's writings do not tell us that God cannot keep His promises.

Hate to beat a dead horse here (Where is Pam's dead horse beating thingy when you need it) BUT -

Let me say one again that it is not that God can't keep His promises ... although EGW does say that .... the point is that the promises do not apply to me because I've not keep His commands. Thus they are not promises because the promises are not made to me.

I am sure you can find quotes that say we can sin and still claim promises. But I think the quotes in context well out weigh the contrary.

And yes it is indeed good that friends can still disagree.

[phkrause]

GP, It does seem to me that most of his promises if not all, throughout the Bible, are based on giving all eternal Life! So I'd say that for those that do except him as there savior that promise is being kept? No? So that tells me that all promises are conditional of us doing something? No? So are we determining that God lies? Because it does seem that way.

[Bravus]

So Bravus, how can/do you worship and pledge allegiance to a God who cannot/would not keep His promises?

It's a good question, Gerry, and a very difficult one. I have to admit, in many ways these days I am probably more 'post-Christian' than Christian. I believe in God, but my understanding of God is quite different from that of most Christians. The issue of promises and God's interventions in the world is one of those differences, and also one of the things that forced me to change my beliefs.

As far as I am concerned, it is a simple fact that God does not reliably keep his promises, if we take what is written in the Bible as being his set of promises. I mentioned Psalm 91 but there are hundreds or thousands of others. No-one here has managed to refute that issue: there is sophistry but not truth.

Given that God does not in fact keep those promises, the simplest course would be to reject God, but I have not done that. Rather, I have tried to understand the real nature of God... and that has taken me beyond the Bible as the only source of knowledge of God.

If anyone is interested I can link half a dozen blog posts over the past 5 years in which I've wrestled with these issues, and some tentative conclusions. But your question is not something that forces me to withdraw from the statement that God does not keep his (Bible) promises, since there is a mountain of evidence to support that. Instead, it forces me to recognise that the God I worship and pledge allegiance to is not 'that God'.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So Bravus, how can/do you worship and pledge allegiance to a God who cannot/would not keep His promises?

I have to admit, in many ways these days I am probably more 'post-Christian' than Christian. I believe in God, but my understanding of God is quite different from that of most Christians. The issue of promises and God's interventions in the world is one of those differences, and also one of the things that forced me to change my beliefs.

What are your beliefs?

If God doesn't keep his promises and if God doesn't intervene in history, do you believe in the resurrection of the righteous and in the second coming? And if you do, why do you?

[Bravus]

I didn't say God doesn't intervene in history. What I meant was that I don't believe he intervenes to find people parking spots, find lost dogs and wallets or cure cancer... or if he does he does so in some sort of odd and capricious way, not any reliable way. He apparently heals cancer but not amputations, for example.

That doesn't rule out miracles. I don't rule out much of anything entirely. It does make them much rarer... and that accords with our actual experience.

I just accept that and move on, rather than performing gymnastics to try to rationalise it.

[Woody]

Quote:

GP, It does seem to me that most of his promises if not all, throughout the Bible, are based on giving all eternal Life! So I'd say that for those that do except him as there savior that promise is being kept? No?

As my friend Rob used to say:

BINGO

pk ... I think this is SUCH an important concept to remember. And I SO often tend to forget it. Thannks for the reminder.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So Bravus, how can/do you worship and pledge allegiance to a God who cannot/would not keep His promises?

It's a good question, Gerry, and a very difficult one. I have to admit, in many ways these days I am probably more 'post-Christian' than Christian. I believe in God, but my understanding of God is quite different from that of most Christians. The issue of promises and God's interventions in the world is one of those differences, and also one of the things that forced me to change my beliefs.

As far as I am concerned, it is a simple fact that God does not reliably keep his promises, if we take what is written in the Bible as being his set of promises. I mentioned Psalm 91 but there are hundreds or thousands of others. No-one here has managed to refute that issue: there is sophistry but not truth.

Given that God does not in fact keep those promises, the simplest course would be to reject God, but I have not done that. Rather, I have tried to understand the real nature of God... and that has taken me beyond the Bible as the only source of knowledge of God.

If anyone is interested I can link half a dozen blog posts over the past 5 years in which I've wrestled with these issues, and some tentative conclusions. But your question is not something that forces me to withdraw from the statement that God does not keep his (Bible) promises, since there is a mountain of evidence to support that. Instead, it forces me to recognise that the God I worship and pledge allegiance to is not 'that God'.

Very Good Bravus. I with you brother. No one can refute it but they sure whine.

[John317]

I believe God is active in our lives much more than most people would think. According to the Bible, how active God is in our lives depends largely on people's faith.

Matthew 9:29

Then he touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith be it done to you."

Luke 17:19

And he said to him, "Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well."

Luke 7:50

And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

[Bravus]

Yep, that's the old stuff (and what Woody has quoted from EGW is cut from the same stuff): when God fails to keep his promises, it's always *our* fault.

[Dr. Shane]

How about this one, then? The whole of Psalm 91:

Psalm 91

7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

That is an awesome Psalm and I have often felt as if it was applying to me. Even now, we are into this recession 2+ years. There is 40% unemployment in the construction industry and I still have a job.

That said, I have always read this Psalm as David's personal experience with God and not as a promise of God to all believers. The Bible has many stories of believers that were martyred or died of illness. I don't think the Psalmist was trying to teach that believing in God is a 100% protection against all harm even though the Psalm does sound like that.

[Dr. Shane]

The only promise I believe that God has promised me is that whosoever believeth in Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus told us not to worry about where about where our food was going to come from. He even taught us not to fear the one who could destroy the body but fear He who could destroy both body and soul in hell. So that tells me not to even fear being martyred. God will take care of me. I am confident. However it may not be the way I would like Him to. John the Baptist probably wasn't all that excited about losing his head, but eternity is in front of him.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So Bravus, how can/do you worship and pledge allegiance to a God who cannot/would not keep His promises?

It's a good question, Gerry, and a very difficult one. I have to admit, in many ways these days I am probably more 'post-Christian' than Christian. I believe in God, but my understanding of God is quite different from that of most Christians. The issue of promises and God's interventions in the world is one of those differences, and also one of the things that forced me to change my beliefs.

Do you believe the following quote?

Quote:

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive. By the Bible testimony these will detect the deceiver in his disguise. To all the testing time will come. By the sifting of temptation the genuine Christian will be revealed. Are the people of God now so firmly established upon His word that they would not yield to the evidence of their senses? Would they, in such a crisis, cling to the Bible and the Bible only? {Mar 160.6} {GC88 625.2} {GC 625.3}

There are times when you write as if you will only accept the Bible as a measuring-stick of truth-- as when, for instance, you choose to dismiss the Spirit of prophecy--- yet there are others times when you seem not to believe the Bible.

What do you base your beliefs about God on-- the Bible or your own personal experiences?

I base mine on the Bible, even when my personal, subjective experiences might otherwise lead me to doubt the Bible. For instance, when my own physical eyes don't see God or Christ, I deliberately choose to trust the Bible's promises that God is with me and a very present help.

So the promises of God-- the Bible--are like the instruments that a pilot must trust when he can't see out the window of the plane. His eyes may tell him that he's going one way, but he has to trust his instrument panel. If he trusts his eyes, and his other senses, he might well be killed. If he's smart he'll put his faith in the instruments, not in his eyes. His eyes might lead him to fly right into the ground. But if he goes by his instruments, he will stay safe and eventually reach home.

[Bravus]

When I insist on Bible evidence, what I am doing is holding people to *their* standards, not my standards. Sola Scriptura is *their* claim, I just test whether they really mean it. Turns out, most times, they don't.

The Bible is one revelation of God, the world is another. Both (IMO) contain something of Eden and something of the Fall, and are admixtures of truth and error.

I've said it before - I reject bibliolatry, with a small or large B. No book is sufficient to contain the totality of God.

The fact that I test the claims of those who claim the Bible *is* large enough does not mean that I accept those claims myself.

[John317]

When I insist on Bible evidence, what I am doing is holding people to *their* standards, not my standards. Sola Scriptura is *their* claim, I just test whether they really mean it. Turns out, most times, they don't.

But Bible evidence alone is not my standard. I accept Ellen White as a genuine prophet of God. You evidently misunderstand what it means to have the Bible as the standard of doctrine. It doesn't mean that Ellen White's writings are to be ignored. She is also an authority for Seventh-day Adventists.

Ask people about their standards before you go trying to test if they mean something. You might find out that you are giving them the wrong test.

Is it really your responsibility to see if people are holding to their own standards? If you are going to take on that responsibility, you might as well first make sure you know what that standard is. It seems to me that you have a hard enough time sticking to your own standards without taking on the added burden of making sure others stick to theirs.

[Bravus]

Hate to break the news, but it's not all about you. I know what you believe. There are other people who post here too.

[Bravus]

I hasten to add that it's not all about me either. You'll notice I don't say a lot about my beliefs. I'm not trying to hide anything - I'll always give a straight answer when asked - I just don't find it that interesting to talk about myself. And there's such a gulf between me and most here that there's really not much more to say.

It's important to remember that I'm not here either to win arguments or to make converts. I'm here to have a discussion. When I say I 'test' others' claims, it's in that context.