Does God ever not keep His promises?

[Overaged]

You didn't answer my question, Gerry: outside of the entertainment context of magic shows, how often do you really, seriously doubt the evidence of your senses? My point was that in a trivial sense our senses are fallible... but we don't drive through the red light because we assume our senses are unreliable and it's really green. In matters of life and death (rather than entertainment), we rely on our senses implicitly.

Ahhhh, wait a minute. We cannot even there at the traffic lights always rely on our own senses. What about the drunk or the speeder who comes charging through that light when you have the right of way and he "Tbones" you before you even knew he was coming? Clearly, the senses are very limited.

[Overaged]

LOL, yes I know what you mean re the purple dot stuff. I guess one of the things I was thinking is that we often should not trust our senses as far as we do. I believe there are too many factors that affect them. Our senses, in the end, will not be able to tell us if it's Satan or not....that is, until he starts telling us to do things which are not in the Bible.

[LifeHiscost]

I think for the most part our senses are not the problem. The problem is our processor. We think we are a lot smarter than we really are and operate on a great number of assumptions which are probably just a house of cards.

I think that's a fair assumption. And according to the Word, so does Divine Wisdom.

"Wisdom is the principal thing; Therefore get wisdom. And in all your getting, get understanding."

Proverbs 4:7 NKJV

"Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty, nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy."

1 Timothy 6:17 NKJV

"Thus says the LORD,

"Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind

And makes flesh his strength,

And whose heart turns away from the LORD."

Jeremiah 17:6 NASB

"“Do not put your trust in idols or make metal images of gods for yourselves. I am the Lord your God."

Leviticus 19:4 NLT

"“If God does not trust his own angels

and has charged his messengers with foolishness,

how much less will he trust people made of clay!

They are made of dust, crushed as easily as a moth."Job 4:18,19 NLT

God blesses!

[Gerr]

You didn't answer my question, Gerry: outside of the entertainment context of magic shows, how often do you really, seriously doubt the evidence of your senses? My point was that in a trivial sense our senses are fallible... but we don't drive through the red light because we assume our senses are unreliable and it's really green. In matters of life and death (rather than entertainment), we rely on our senses implicitly.

I thought I had answered the question. Let me try again. Operationally, of course, I rely a lot on my senses in my day to day living. But there is nothing trivial about the falllibility of our senses. Even Fido has better hearing, and the eagle a better vision. So in matters that are beyond my senses such as origins, sin, salvation, God, etc., I have to rely on extra-sensory information. That is why personal truth as the result of my own sensory perceptions is/should be subjected to the scrutiny of the corporate wisdom of the body. The collective hearing and vision of the body I believe would be more reliable than any one individual alone. Of course, I'm not saying that the church is to be our conscience.

[Gerr]

I think for the most part our senses are not the problem. The problem is our processor.

But.....the processor depends totally on the incoming information that is transmitted by the senses. And I have already pointed out that the range of our sensory capabilities is only a very small portion of what's out there. The visible light that we are able to see is but a small segment of the electromagnetic spectrum. Even within what we are able to see, what we see may or may not be the true reality. Depending on the context, what looks bigger or longer may not be.

[Bravus]

I agree with you, Gerry, on the limitations of our senses - the electromagnetic spectrum is a lovely illustration of the point. I also agree that 'spiritual things are spiritually discerned'.

But our philosophical investigations have led us away from the topic a bit - we're talking about God keeping his promises. In terms of that, we've accepted that he is faithful to keep his promise of salvation (and that we can't check on that promise now anyway), and are focusing on the more material promises.

The promise that our bread and water will be sure is not an area where our senses are limited. Unless God is providing bread that only radiates in the X-ray spectrum so we can't see it, our senses are reliable enough to tell us that sometimes the promised bread does not eventuate.

[Gerr]

Bravus: The promise that our bread and water will be sure is not an area where our senses are limited. Unless God is providing bread that only radiates in the X-ray spectrum so we can't see it, our senses are reliable enough to tell us that sometimes the promised bread does not eventuate.

It's true, the promised material things like bread or prosperity, or the ground hog or deer not making havoc in my garden although I return tithe do not always materialize. That's why I had/have to set these promises within the framework of what the rest of Scriptures have to say.

[Overaged]

we've accepted that he is faithful to keep his promise of salvation (and that we can't check on that promise now anyway), and are focusing on the more material promises.quote]

Well; I disagree. We can check on that promise; but only with an authority outside of our "natural senses."

[Woody]

"Whenever God's people, in any period of the world, have cheerfully and willingly carried out His plan in systematic benevolence and in gifts and offerings, they have realized the standing promise that prosperity should attend all their labors just in proportion as they obeyed His requirements. When they acknowledged the claims of God and complied with His requirements, honoring Him with their substance, their barns were filled with plenty. But when they robbed God in tithes and in offerings they were made to realize that they were not only robbing Him but themselves, for He limited His blessings to them just in proportion as they limited their offerings to Him." 3T 395

[Woody]

If we are unfaithful stewards of earthly things, how can we expect Him to entrust us with the things of heaven? It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer. {COL 144.4}

[Woody]

Before we pray that the sick may have blessings from God - we must first find out if they are faithful tithe payers:

"We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church."--U. T. {HL 237.4}

[Woody]

"But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises." .... "In order to receive His blessing in answer to prayer, they must cease to do evil and learn to do well." MH 227

[Overaged]

If we are unfaithful stewards of earthly things, how can we expect Him to entrust us with the things of heaven? It may be that here is the secret of unanswered prayer. {COL 144.4}

The heritage that God has promised to His people is not in this world. Abraham had no possession in the earth, "no, not so much as to set his foot on." Acts 7:5. He possessed great substance, and he used it to the glory of God and the good of his fellow men; but he did not look upon this world as his home. The Lord had called him to leave his idolatrous countrymen, with the promise of the land of Canaan as an everlasting possession; yet neither he nor his son nor his son's son received it. When Abraham desired a burial place for his dead, he had to buy it of the Canaanites. His sole possession in the Land of Promise was that rock-hewn tomb in the cave of Machpelah. {PP 169.3}

But the word of God had not failed; neither did it meet its final accomplishment in the occupation of Canaan by the Jewish people. "To Abraham and his seed were the promises made."

170

Galatians 3:16. Abraham himself was to share the inheritance. The fulfillment of God's promise may seem to be long delayed--for "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8); it may appear to tarry; but at the appointed time "it will surely come, it will not tarry." Habakkuk 2:3. The gift to Abraham and his seed included not merely the land of Canaan, but the whole earth. So says the apostle,

"The promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." Romans 4:13. And the Bible plainly teaches that the promises made to Abraham are to be fulfilled through Christ. All that are Christ's are "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise"--heirs to "an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away"--the earth freed from the curse of sin. Galatians 3:29; 1 Peter 1:4. For "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;" and "the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace." Daniel 7:27; Psalm 37:11. {PP 169.4}

[Woody]

"Precious promises are upon record on condition of our obedience to God's requirements." {RH, January 28, 1875 par. 16}

"The promise of God to us is on condition of obedience, compliance with all His requirements"..... CH 377

All the promises of God are on condition of obedience to Him. {LYL 83.1}

There is a class who say, "I believe, I believe," and lay claim to all the promises which are given on condition of obedience; but they do not the works of Christ. God is not honored by any such faith. It is spurious. {OHC 119.4}

"These promises of God to his people were on condition of their obedience. If they would serve the Lord fully, he would do great things for them. After Moses had received the judgments from the Lord, and had written them for the people, also the promises, on condition of obedience, the Lord said unto him, "Come up unto the Lord ..." {1SP 239.2}

"God would in no wise excuse sin in a people who had been enlightened, even if he had, in their days of faithfulness and purity, loved them, and given them especial promises. These promises and blessings were always upon condition of obedience upon their part." {RH, January 14, 1873 par. 10}

"God chose Israel as his people, and gave them gracious promises on condition of obedience. He faithfully performed his promises." {ST, October 15, 1896 par. 1}

"It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional." {Ev 695.1}

"God's promises are conditional." {PCP 25.5}

[Overaged]

"But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises." .... "In order to receive His blessing in answer to prayer, they must cease to do evil and learn to do well." MH 227

This brief quote excludes the intended, and correct context. It was taken from a chapter of Ministry Of Healing entitled: "Prayer For The Sick;" and this is where Ellen White was trying to lay before the Church, Biblical principles attached to praying for the sick. Here is a little more context:

The Saviour would have us encourage the sick, the hopeless, the afflicted, to take hold upon His strength. Through faith and prayer the sickroom may be transformed into a Bethel. In word and deed, physicians and nurses may say, so plainly that it cannot be misunderstood, "God is in this place" to save, and not to destroy. Christ desires to manifest His presence in the sickroom, filling the hearts of physicians and nurses with the sweetness of His love. If the life of the attendants upon the sick is such that Christ can go with them to the bedside of the patient, there will come to him the conviction that the compassionate Saviour is present, and this conviction will itself do much for the healing of both the soul and the body. {MH 226.2}

And God hears prayer. Christ has said, "If ye shall ask anything in My name, I will do it." Again He says, "If any man serve Me, him will My Father honor." John 14:14; 12:26. If we live according to His word, every precious promise

227

He has given will be fulfilled to us. We are undeserving of His mercy, but as we give ourselves to Him, He receives us. He will work for and through those who follow Him. {MH 226.3}

But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises. The psalmist says, "If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me." Psalm 66:18. If we render to Him only a partial, halfhearted obedience, His promises will not be fulfilled to us. {MH 227.1}

In the word of God we have instruction relative to special prayer for the recovery of the sick. But the offering of such prayer is a most solemn act, and should not be entered upon without careful consideration. In many cases of prayer for the healing of the sick, that which is called faith is nothing less than presumption. {MH 227.2}

[Bravus]

As has been said: hedged around with so many preconditions that it is impossible to ever say that the promise has not been kept.

In those circumstances, the word 'promise' seems to be not to be the most appropriate one.

[Woody]

As has been said: hedged around with so many preconditions that it is impossible to ever say that the promise has not been kept.

In those circumstances, the word 'promise' seems to be not to be the most appropriate one.

Yes. Like I stated at the beginning of this thread ... they are not promises unless we meet the conditions.

[Overaged]

"God's promises are conditional." {PCP 25.5}

Once again; correct context and accurate meaning are excluded by snipping out just 4 words from the intended meaning; which makes the truth quite different than just these 4 words alone:

No Failure of God's Promises.--

The angels of God in their messages to men represent time as very short. Thus it has always been presented to me. It is true that time has continued longer than we expected in the early days of this message. Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never!

It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

As has been said: hedged around with so many preconditions that it is impossible to ever say that the promise has not been kept.

In those circumstances, the word 'promise' seems to be not to be the most appropriate one.

Yes. Like I stated at the beginning of this thread ... they are not promises unless we meet the conditions.

Which specific promises would you be talking about? Certainly; it is already plain that many promises are unconditional.

[Woody]

The terms of the law are plainly specified. If you love God with your whole heart and soul and strength and mind, and your neighbor as yourself, you are making sure of life eternal; for Christ has said of those who keep His commandments, "Ye shall live." Will you do the very work you must do in order to be saved? If you are careful, prompt, and conscientious in your homelife; if in your prayers you claim the Lord's promises, and expect an answer; if you discharge your duties faithfully, you will not be left to stumble on in darkness. The Lord of heaven will be present with you; by His Holy Spirit He will guide you. Every one who is to receive the overcomer's reward must first overcome every sin; and not until he overcomes through divine grace, can he entertain hope of entering the haven of eternal bliss. {SpTB09 13.2}

[Overaged]

The terms of the law are plainly specified.

[Overaged]

Christ died because we could not keep the law; not because He could not keep ALL His promises

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

As has been said: hedged around with so many preconditions that it is impossible to ever say that the promise has not been kept.

In those circumstances, the word 'promise' seems to be not to be the most appropriate one.

Yes. Like I stated at the beginning of this thread ... they are not promises unless we meet the conditions.

[Overaged]

quote=Woody]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

As has been said: hedged around with so many preconditions that it is impossible to ever say that the promise has not been kept.

In those circumstances, the word 'promise' seems to be not to be the most appropriate one./quote]

Yes. Like I stated at the beginning of this thread ... they are not promises unless we meet the conditions.

The "condition" itself is a promise; and the condition is faith in Christ; not in *perfect* law-keeping.

"The just shall live by" perfect law-keeping.

[Woody]

Quote:

"The just shall live by" perfect law-keeping.

Hmmm