Does God ever not keep His promises?

[Overaged]

The answer is simple. If you don't obey all of the commandments ... you are not entitled to request food from God.

Woody; may I please get you to recap some of your main references for saying this? This old drywaller may just be a little stupid or something, but I do not see any clear evidence for this in this thread as you have claimed several times there is.

[Woody]

Sure ... I would refer you to the first page of this discussion. No doubt that is insufficient in your mind. So insufficient it will remain.

I would not expect to change your mind. Nor do I care to. That is unless the moderator comes by and declares that unless I prove to his satisfaction that what I say is true that he will delete my posts. Then I might be more motivated to prove it to you. But so far that has not happened in my case.

Perhaps I am just privileged.

[Overaged]

LOL, thankyou my friend! My existence would not be as meaningful without all your challenges and questions!!

[Overaged]

Sure ... I would refer you to the first page of this discussion. No doubt that is insufficient in your mind. So insufficient it will remain.

I would not expect to change your mind. Nor do I care to. That is unless the moderator comes by and declares that unless I prove to his satisfaction that what I say is true that he will delete my posts. Then I might be more motivated to prove it to you. But so far that has not happened in my case.

Perhaps I am just privileged.

OK; I went and double-checked. I see two posts where you quoted a number of small quotes from Ellen White's writings. Now, without getting into weather or not those quotes are true; I would like to ask if you have any Bible verses which would prove that we have to obey the commandments 100% or God will not answer our prayer/s.

I doubt that you mean to, but just using Ellen White's writings like this, independent of scripture, is not the way Adventists officially teach that her writings be used. When they are used like this, it almost always leads to misunderstandings. So a few Bible verses would be appreciated...

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Sure ... I would refer you to the first page of this discussion. No doubt that is insufficient in your mind. So insufficient it will remain.

I would not expect to change your mind. Nor do I care to. That is unless the moderator comes by and declares that unless I prove to his satisfaction that what I say is true that he will delete my posts. Then I might be more motivated to prove it to you. But so far that has not happened in my case.

Perhaps I am just privileged.

OK; I went and double-checked. I see two posts where you quoted a number of small quotes from Ellen White's writings. Now, without getting into weather or not those quotes are true; I would like to ask if you have any Bible verses which would prove that we have to obey the commandments 100% or God will not answer our prayer/s.

I doubt that you mean to, but just using Ellen White's writings like this, independent of scripture, is not the way Adventists officially teach that her writings be used. When they are used like this, it almost always leads to misunderstandings. So a few Bible verses would be appreciated...

No. My posts are sufficient. I stand by the words of our prophet.

[Dr. Shane]

I will always rely on the Word of God over the word of men. ANYDAY

Don't misunderstand the point the Bible is making. If something is clear, of course, all we need to do is read the Bible. For example, if I get angry and want to kill my neighbor, the Bible gives me clear direction. I don't need to call anyone and ask how they understand the Bible on that matter.

However there are other things like, perhaps eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath. It would be foolish of me to trust to my own understanding. I need to consult with a group of like-minded, Sola-Scriptura brothers and sisters and submit to the consensus of the brethren. That is exactly the example we are given in Acts 15.

[Woody]

Quote:

However there are other things like, perhaps eating in a restaurant on the Sabbath. It would be foolish of me to trust to my own understanding. I need to consult with a group of like-minded, Sola-Scriptura brothers and sisters and submit to the consensus of the brethren. That is exactly the example we are given in Acts 15.

Although I personally do not eat at restaurants on Sabbath ... I would never submit myself to the brethren on this issue. And Christ would not have us to be like the Jews and tell people what they should and should not do on Sabbath.

[Dr. Shane]

Christ would not have us to be like the Jews and tell people what they should and should not do on Sabbath.

I didn't say we should tell others. I said we should listen to others. We should seek out their advice. No one is talking about *telling* others. Put that strawman back in the closet.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Christ would not have us to be like the Jews and tell people what they should and should not do on Sabbath.

I didn't say we should tell others. I said we should listen to others. We should seek out their advice. No one is talking about *telling* others. Put that strawman back in the closet.

[Dr. Shane]

They most certainly would be telling YOU what to do because you said you should submit to whatever they said.

[Woody]

Quote:

Don't trust the committee in your head. Don't go upstairs alone - it's dangerous.

I trust what's in my head far more than I trust what's in someone elses head. I have no idea what's rattling around in their heads.

[Dr. Shane]

"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' declares the LORD." (Isaiah 55:8)

"Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding: In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he will direct thy paths." (Prov. 3:5,6)

"Where no wise guidance is, the people falleth; But in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." (ibid 11:14)

It is pride that prevents us from seeking counsel from our brethren and pride that tells us to trust in ourselves. If I am going to follow that path, why belong to a church at all?

"Humble yourselves, therefore, under God's mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time." (1 Peter 5:6)

It takes humility to seek counsel from others. Pride shuts the door and says we dare not go there.

[LifeHiscost]

For there is no one way. If there was only one way ... there would only be one person saved.

"Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

"For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures...There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”"

Acts 4:11-13 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

we won't know about salvation and the afterlife until we die or until the Second Coming, so those promises are safe from refutation in the here and now.

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17:3 KJV

"To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."Colossians 1:27 NKJV

"Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life."1 John 5:12 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Steps 1-3

Steps 1-3

are all very important, Shane. But is that really necessary for all.

"Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven."Matthew 18:3 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

"Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”"

2 Thessalonians 3:10 NLT

God blesses!

[Bravus]

I'm sure that's a great comfort to Ethiopians and Bangladeshis in famines.

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

The reality of my experiences in too many unanswered prayers vis-a-vis the promises of God that I claimed used to bother me a lot. As I asked Bravus in a previous post on this thread, how can one trust, worship, and pledge allegiance to someone whose words and promises could not be relied upon? That used to REALLY bother me a lot. Let me share with you how I found peace of mind. Believing that the Bible is God's truthful revelation of himself, I frame God's promises and their fulfillment or non-fulfillment within the framework of some greater realities.

A. Bedrock truths:

1. ESV | Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie,[/b]

2. ESV | Nu 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

So if a promise seems not to be kept, there has to be a reason other than that God lied.

3. ESV | Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

4. ESV | Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So no matter how many promises of safety and promises of life, we all die regardless!

5. ESV | 1 Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us.

6. We all desire immediate and direct answers to our prayers,

231

and are tempted to become discouraged when the answer is delayed or comes in an unlooked-for form. But God is too wise and good to answer our prayers always at just the time and in just the manner we desire. He will do more and better for us than to accomplish all our wishes. And because we can trust His wisdom and love, we should not ask Him to concede to our will, but should seek to enter into and accomplish His purpose. Our desires and interests should be lost in His will. These experiences that test faith are for our benefit. By them it is made manifest whether our faith is true and sincere, resting on the word of God alone, or whether depending on circumstances, it is uncertain and changeable. MH 231-32

So then, there are things we ask for that we think are good for us that may in fact be not good for us and not according to His will.

7. ESV | Re 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, ...

ESV | Re 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. ...

ESV | Re 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

8.ESV | Jn 16:33 In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”

So we are caught in a battle zone.

9. ESV | Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

10. ESV | Heb 11:36 Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— 38 of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

So some see the fulfillment of some of these promises while others do not, because God has something better.

11. NASB95 | Ps 66:18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear

12. GNT Prov 1:29-31 29You have never had any use for knowledge and have always refused to obey the LORD. 30You have never wanted my advice or paid any attention when I corrected you. 31So then, you will get what you deserve, and your own actions will make you sick.

So when the promise is not kept, we might search our own hearts to see if there is not some evil that we are holding on to.

13. NRSV | 2 Co 1:20 For in him every one of God’s promises is a “Yes.” For this reason it is through him that we say the “Amen,” to the glory of God.

14. ESV | Re 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,

15. ESV | Da 3:16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.”

This is the basic framework in which I try to fit the promises of God.

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

"Even while we were with you, we gave you this command: “Those unwilling to work will not get to eat.”"

2 Thessalonians 3:10 NLT

God blesses!

People who have to walk miles to get water and feed their families for less than you make in ten minutes are working harder than you.

[LifeHiscost]

Just tagging on.

This is the basic framework in which I try to fit the promises of God.

Very good overview, Gerry. Thank you for taking the time and effort to spell it out so that all can clearly understand God's primary intent as revealed through His Son, Jesus.

When my mind is agitated about what is happening at the moment, I try always to go back to a few basic principles that come to mind about Who God is and what I can remember of His purposes for me as a sinner, no matter how bad I might feel in the present mpoment.

God is Love, basic, and it never changes even momentarily in order for Him to deal with the stupidity of the evil intent of mankind.

Even in the "strange" act that He performs, when at last relegating the wicked to oblivion, it is out of love for all living creatures. The ones continuing to live, because of the bliss they will enjoy through the ceaseless aeons of time shared with Him. The wicked because they will at last be removed from the misery they live in, when no longer able to live separated by their own choice, from the very Person responsible for every good gift they ever received.

Thanks for a well thought out treatise on why it's good to hang on to the best Friend any person has ever had, and will ever have in the future.

Praise God, I believe that day is not far off for those who long for it and are willing to recognize the reason they will be there is because of what God has done for us, not what we have done for Him, important as that might be.

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord, and not rather that he should turn from his evil way and return [to his God] and live?

Ezekiel 18:23 AMP brackets their's LHC

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 33:11 KJV

The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.John 10:10 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

People who have to walk miles to get water and feed their families for less than you make in ten minutes are working harder than you.

It happens to be that God has permitted my wife and I to personally meet one of those individuals who you are probably referring to, and we now are working on a continuing effort with them, to help them as well as their village, from having that burdensome chore.

In fact we have his telephone number and address where he is able to receive for his family and friends if anyone would like to share for the sake of those Jesus referred to as, the least of these, my brethren.

God is good.

"Go and announce to them that the Kingdom of Heaven is near.... Give as freely as you have received!"

God blesses!

[Gerr]

It's been quite a while since I looked at my notes on this subject. That God is love should have been in the first 3 bedrock truths.

Thanks.

[Bravus]

Thanks very much for the detailed and clear outline, Gerry.

I understand the logic of it and applaud the clarity and the strong Biblical base.

I just find it's a logic I can no longer accept for myself. (No doubt there will be plenty of people who will line up to tell me this is a character flaw on my part.)

You start with the Bible saying that God doesn't lie, with the implication that this means the Bible doesn't lie about God (or isn't mistaken), and then that is used in various ways to explain away the times when God appears not to keep his promises.

The logic is kind of circular, since the underlying assumption is focused on accepting the Bible and therefore rejecting your personal experience of the realities of life.

(There's a bit of a 'thread crossing' here with the 'I want proof' thread, in terms of thinking about evidence, what evidence counts and how our beliefs are challenged by the evidence.)

For myself, I no longer find it possible to ignore the evidence of reality. I can understand and appreciate how others make a different choice (to believe the Bible over reality), but cannot adopt that for myself.

In the end, it's up to God to judge what is and is not acceptable to him...

[Gerr]

The reason I cannot put 100% confidence in what I see/feel/hear as reality is because of the number of times my senses have betrayed me! I'm sure you've seen magic performed.

I've seen a woman suspended in the air, and the magician passing a large ring over the woman starting from head to toe. If I was relying on my senses, I would have sworn that was reality. And how many times have we all seen picture puzzles where we are to find certain objects and never see them until they're pointed out? The time is coming, warned God's modern day messenger, that the counterfeit so closely resemble the real truth that we would have to deny our senses and rely totally on what the Word says.

[Bravus]

Yeah, that's the argument that's usually made, but really, how often in real life - as opposed to these entertainment contexts - have your senses misled you? Do you *really* not trust your ability to discern whether the light is red or green? Whether the milk is fresh or sour? Whether the stove top is hot or cold?