Does God ever not keep His promises?

[Bravus]

I don't take it as an affront that some use the Bible as the only or the most important source of revelation. No problem with that at all.

I do have a problem when they mischaracterise my views, as they universally do, in a wide variety of ways too tedious to list here.

I have basically stated what I believe, and tried to contrast that to other views.

If 'bibliolatry' is offensive, I withdraw it.

The difference between 'sophistry' and 'sophism' is important, and is not just a matter of semantics. Sophistry is a description of a particular argument, sophism of a complete belief system. It's important to clarify that I was describing the former, not the latter.

Again, the best approach if an argument is described as sophistry is not to complain about the term (or one of its neighbours) but to demonstrate how the argument is actually substantive.

[SivartM]

That is a huge difference because the Scripture tells us not to lean on our own understanding but that in the multitude of counselors there is safety. So if we are relying on ourselves, we are not following Scripture.

The entire reason that Protestantism and Adventism came into being was because some people started interpreting for themselves.

[Dr. Shane]

The entire reason that Protestantism and Adventism came into being was because some people started interpreting for themselves.

But not by themselves. They studied the Bible together. Lay people were not allowed to read the Bible at one point in church history. We lean not on our own understanding as individuals. We lean on our collective understanding as a group. And that is what the Bible teaches us to do.

[Bravus]

A group of people together can be wrong as well as right. The dozens of other denominations that all make exactly the same claims but arrive at completely different doctrines are evidence of that.

Back to topic. Shane, you have claimed that the only actual promise is salvation/eternal life. But the promises are not phrased in those terms in the Bible. There are very specific promises of a certainty of supply of food, for example.

To arrive at your interpretation requires radically reinterpreting the plain words of Scripture. No?

I think EGW's claim of perfect obedience being required and John317's claim of needing 'enough faith' fit into the same basket, and both mean that no promise is worth the paper it's written on.

Does anyone actually wish to claim that God always keeps his promises?

[SivartM]

But not by themselves. They studied the Bible together. Lay people were not allowed to read the Bible at one point in church history. We lean not on our own understanding as individuals. We lean on our collective understanding as a group. And that is what the Bible teaches us to do.

And if the group is wrong...?

It's obviously happened many times. Every new insight is born by someone stepping outside of their group, and often there are many people who disagree with them.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Conditional promises seem like threats. :/

Yes Rudy. You have hit on something. They are not something to be blessed with. They are something to be threatened with.

I'd say that we are looking at the OT, if we're talking about conditional promises??? Show me in the NT conditional promises? What gymnastics are we talking about?? I don't see any. And even if we could keep any promises that God/Jesus has put out there, did not Jesus die for all to bring us back to God????? That is the only promise in the Bible/NT that matters!!!!! So when our name comes up in the Judgment, who does God see?? He see his Son, Jesus Christ, not Woody, PK, Bravus, Sivart, GLG, John, Dr. Rich, Sonny/Robert, Stan the Man, Shane, Gail, etc.(sorry but I couldn't put everyone's name in). Because the only promise that matters is the one Jesus made to us, "That if we stand up for him, he will stand up for us before his Father." And his Father would never see our filthy rags, etc.

Sorry but I've never seen a promise that God/Jesus have never kept.

And those conditional promises, are they really promises? or are they covenants between us and him?? Like any contracts, there are two parties and each has to do there part. God has never not done his part!

[Bravus]

SDAs believe in the Old as well as the New Testament, don't they?

But here's a list of 250 promises from the NT, including many of physical safety and material security: http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/new-testament-promises

[Bravus]

The attempt to limit the promises to salvation only seem like attempts to move the thread's question into the realm of the untestable: we won't know about salvation and the afterlife until we die or until the Second Coming, so those promises are safe from refutation in the here and now.

I can't speak for Woody, but I'm pretty sure that's not what he was asking about...

From the list I provided above, here are a few (from the New Testament). I've checked the contexts and they don't appear to be conditional, but I've also given the references if you want to dig deeper:

Matthew 6:25-33

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:

29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.

30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

(I don't read Verse 33 as a condition, but some might)

Luke 11:14-16

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

How many people have been anointed and gone on to die, even young people?

[Dr. Shane]

A group of people together can be wrong as well as right.

[Dr. Shane]

And if the group is wrong...?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Woody

Okay. So the difference is that you rely on others. And I rely on my own study of scripture. Would that define our differences?

That is a huge difference because the Scripture tells us not to lean on our own understanding but that in the multitude of counselors there is safety. So if we are relying on ourselves, we are not following Scripture.

I will always rely on the Word of God over the word of men. ANYDAY

Obviously all people who come here are consulting a vast amount of believers. But personally I would't chance my salvation for anyone's but mine. HA HA !!!

[John317]

All of God's promises are conditional. The only thing that is unconditional is God's love. Salvation is certainly conditional, and so are God's answers to prayer.

[John317]

Excellent points, Shane. I've thought of John the Baptist, too. Although he was a great prophet and very close to Jesus, He died alone and had his head cut off, apparently forsaken and certainly without seeing many promises answered. It seems to me he had good reason to be discouraged if anyone does. Yet he stayed true to God.

[LifeHiscost]

“Every war, every famine, every plague, almost every death-bed, is the monument to a petition that was not granted.”

If one is patient the promises will surely come. It is true that those who refuse to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, will not have the patience, a gift of the Holy Spirit, needed to wait for the fulfillment promised.

"Let Your mercy and loving-kindness, O Lord, be upon us, in proportion to our waiting and hoping for You."Psalm 33:22 AMP

And I'm aware of no promise in the Word that gives assurance that all we ask for will be fulfilled.

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts."James 4:3 KJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

If the situation was not resolved the way you wanted, is it still an unanswered prayer?

I would say God's answer was no.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Woody

What do U think?

Yes; God always keeps His promises; if a given promise applies to us at a given time. That's about as "complicated as I prefer to make the subject. Sometimes, when we pray to God and "claim" a promise; God will give us an answer that we don't like - like yes, no, maybe, or wait.

Although IMHO, I don't think it's ever maybe by itself, but "maybe if" instead.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Worship is not for getting. Worship is for giving. It's all about Him not us. We go to church to honor our God. We don't have a relationship with God just to GET but to GIVE. He has already given. (He has give us life) It's our turn to do the giving.

As I understand the Word, the church (that would be you or I, Woody) is known as the body of Christ and even the bride. I cannot express the joy I receive and have received from my earthly bride. If that be the case, I cannot imagine not expecting much from the Father of all good gifts.

"In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself. No one hates his own body but feeds and cares for it, just as Christ cares for the church. And we are members of his body."Ephesians 5:28-30 NLT

There is the story of one who expected the worst from God. And just as he received what he expected, sometimes that's all we get.

"“The master said, ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together!’

“Then the servant with the one bag of silver came and said, ‘Master, I knew you were a harsh man, harvesting crops you didn’t plant and gathering crops you didn’t cultivate. 25 I was afraid I would lose your money, so I hid it in the earth. Look, here is your money back.’

“But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’

“Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away."

Matthew 25:23-29 NLT

This story gives me a strong desire to ask Jesus for two things He has given to others, and I have no reason to believe He will not give me the same promises.

"Then Daniel went home and told his friends Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah what had happened. He urged them to ask the God of heaven to show them his mercy by telling them the secret, so they would not be executed along with the other wise men of Babylon. That night the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven."Daniel 2:17-19 NLT

When they came to a place called The Skull, they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left.

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.

The crowd watched and the leaders scoffed. “He saved others,” they said, “let him save himself if he is really God’s Messiah, the Chosen One.”Luke 23:33-35 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Hate to beat a dead horse here (Where is Pam's dead horse beating thingy when you need it) BUT -

All the promises are for the potential you, Woody. If you have the potential for the Kingdom of Heaven, the promises will be fulfilled. If you only have potential for the kingdom of darkness, His promises for that will be fulfilled.

"We can see in the cross of Calvary what it has cost the Son of God to bring salvation to a fallen race. As the sacrifice in behalf of man was complete, so the restoration of man from the defilement of sin must be thorough and complete. The law of God has been given to us, that we may have rules to govern our conduct. There is no act of wickedness that the law will excuse; there is no unrighteousness that will escape its condemnation. The life of Christ is a perfect fulfillment of every precept of this law. He says, “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” The knowledge of the law would condemn the sinner, and crush hope from his breast, if he did not see Jesus as his substitute and surety, ready to pardon his transgression, and to forgive his sin. When, through faith in Jesus Christ, man does according to the very best of his ability, and seeks to keep the way of the Lord, by obedience to the ten commandments, the perfection of Christ is imputed to cover the transgression of the repentant and obedient soul."RH August 21, 1888, par. 15

"If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]."1 John 1:9 AMP brackets their's LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

So the promises of God-- the Bible--are like the instruments that a pilot must trust when he can't see out the window of the plane. His eyes may tell him that he's going one way, but he has to trust his instrument panel. If he trusts his eyes, and his other senses, he might well be killed. If he's smart he'll put his faith in the instruments, not in his eyes. His eyes might lead him to fly right into the ground. But if he goes by his instruments, he will stay safe and eventually reach home.

Just as I ran across your post, John, I was watching a Moody Bible Institute description of the World WarII loss of pilots who lost their way, based on a trust of their senses, instead of trusting in the plane's instruments. It was an outstanding description of what happens to the human's experience when leaving the foundation of the Word, to rely on feelings or other humanistic alternatives for their bearings to guide them in the life that God gave them.

Seems to me it is more reassuring to accept the instruction on how, where, what, when and Who, from the Person Who gave the life to begin with.

"When all else fails, read the instructions."

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

It's important to remember that I'm not here either to win arguments or to make converts. I'm here to have a discussion. When I say I 'test' others' claims, it's in that context.

Maybe testing the Spirit would also be helpful.

"Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."1 John 4:1 NLT

God blesses!

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: Gail

If the situation was not resolved the way you wanted, is it still an unanswered prayer?

I would say God's answer was no.

God blesses!

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

[Woody]

Quote:

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

The answer is simple. If you don't obey all of the commandments ... you are not entitled to request food from God.

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

If the situation was not resolved the way you wanted, is it still an unanswered prayer?

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

Not trivializing as much as the concept of praying answers.

[Overaged]

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

What is your answer to those who "starve?"

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

"The way you want" sounds sort of trivializing... oh, how selfish of you to want the lavish privilege of food; if God lets you starve then that's the way it ought to be!

What is your answer to those who "starve?"

That sounds like an interesting topic of discussion. Why don't you start a new thread on that topic overaged.