Does God ever not keep His promises?

[Gerr]

There are a lot of things, of course, that I would have to depend on my own senses. But they are so limited on so many things. There's a much greater reality in the electromagnetic spectrum beyond just the visible light that I see. When it comes to certain truths, I'm just seeing the visible light, or just like Galileo's cosmos reality compared with the reality that we know through the Hubble telescope today. But what if the Hubble is just no more than Galileo's crude telescope compared to what is yet to be seen by a bigger more powerful telescope?

The truths that we are talking about cannot be known empirically. These are truths that are/were given through supernatural revelation, yet are rooted in historical facts.

Regardless, I appreciate your being candid. Ultimately, we have to search for answers that fit truth/reality as we understand it.

[Bravus]

A pleasure talking with you, as always, sir.

[Dr. Shane]

I can understand and appreciate how others make a different choice (to believe the Bible over reality), but cannot

You can but you choose not to. I am not trying to be critical just clarifying. I am not one that believes that fate determines what each of us will do and believe. We decide what we will do (the moral code we live by) and what we will believe (the basis for such a moral code).

The error of some is to believe they must be convinced 100% of some ideology or religion in order to honestly profess belief in it. If they have doubts, they don't think they can profess belief. I disagree with that. I embrace my faith despite my doubts just like a courageous soldier goes into battle despite his fear. His fear doesn't make him any less courageous than my doubts make be less faithful. Why? Because he isn't acting on his fears and I am not acting on my doubts.

[Overaged]

People who have to walk miles to get water and feed their families for less than you make in ten minutes are working harder than you.

How do you know? Do you walk miles to get your water? Maybe it would do you some good?

[Overaged]

The reason I cannot put 100% confidence in what I see/feel/hear as reality is because of the number of times my senses have betrayed me! I'm sure you've seen magic performed.

I've seen a woman suspended in the air, and the magician passing a large ring over the woman starting from head to toe. If I was relying on my senses, I would have sworn that was reality. And how many times have we all seen picture puzzles where we are to find certain objects and never see them until they're pointed out? The time is coming, warned God's modern day messenger, that the counterfeit so closely resemble the real truth that we would have to deny our senses and rely totally on what the Word says.

I remember the last time I did some Purple Microdot Acid. (LSD). My senses saw a number of very strange things; and the trouble with that was that I believed my senses. I thought these little green things were chasing me and I ran 7 miles with a cast on my foot to try and get away from them. Then when I got home; I thought I dropped a piece of sandwhich inside the cast so I got a big butcher knife out of the kitchen and chopped the cast off; slashing my leg from the knee down to ribbons to boot.

There are many times, when for many possible reasons, our senses are not infact reality or truth. God's promises do not change; and He always keeps them Some people don't like that because they have some hardship or suffering; but that is the very thing that may be clouding their perception and choices on this matter at hand.

It is good to have something to place our faith in that is positive, and that gives us hope. Nary a thing wrong with that.

[Overaged]

Yeah, that's the argument that's usually made, but really, how often in real life - as opposed to these entertainment contexts - have your senses misled you? Do you *really* not trust your ability to discern whether the light is red or green? Whether the milk is fresh or sour? Whether the stove top is hot or cold?

Do you really trust your senses to figure the Bible and Christians even half as well as you seem to be intimating here? Is it possible that YOUR senses have been misleading you?

[Bravus]

Perhaps I should have said "I can't and remain sane". I can't repudiate reality selectively.

[Bravus]

The fact that I'm saying 'reality' might also be upsetting some. Replace that with 'the sum total of my life experience, including my reading and viewing, and my conscious and unconscious reflections upon it'.

That's why I am speaking only for myself, and completely understand that others with different realities will come to different conclusions.

[Overaged]

Perhaps I should have said "I can't and remain sane". I can't repudiate reality selectively.

LOL; well thats a scientific way to put it!!

[Overaged]

All of God's promises are conditional. The only thing that is unconditional is God's love. Salvation is certainly conditional, and so are God's answers to prayer.

I don't think this is true at all John 3:17 Can you prove it from the Bible?

[Overaged]

I don't take it as an affront that some use the Bible as the only or the most important source of revelation. No problem with that at all.

I do have a problem when they mischaracterise my views, as they universally do, in a wide variety of ways too tedious to list here.

I have basically stated what I believe, and tried to contrast that to other views.

If 'bibliolatry' is offensive, I withdraw it.

The difference between 'sophistry' and 'sophism' is important, and is not just a matter of semantics. Sophistry is a description of a particular argument, sophism of a complete belief system. It's important to clarify that I was describing the former, not the latter.

Again, the best approach if an argument is described as sophistry is not to complain about the term (or one of its neighbours) but to demonstrate how the argument is actually substantive.

Bravus; you seem to just keep saying that people "mischaracterize" your views, when they try to disagree with one of them.

What you said about "sophism" and "sophistry" is absolutely false. I looked it up in several dictionaries so far, and they all agree with me, so where do you get such a thing from? At any rate your use of either of those words is just as unacceptable as "bibliolatry," and I think that if you truly want to "compare & contrast" then such terms can be deleted from future discussions. They are pejorative and judgmental, in just the same way that you feel people "mischaracterize" your views.

Your dislogistic insinuations about Christians and the Bible are in effect, quite dysphemistic.

[Overaged]

Yes. We ALL put our faith in our own mind and power of reasoning. Not in scripture. We put our faith in our ability to understand scripture. And obviously we all see scripture differently. As I frequently state here - there are no two people that view all aspects of scripture the same. Thus ... we have to put our faith in our ability to interpret. For there is no one way. If there was only one way ... there would only be one person saved.

Or could it BE ??? That all this 'knowledge' is not all as important as we make it out to be?

The way I understand it is that *scripture* is the *object* of my faith, and my reasoning; meaning that scripture forms the base for all that we are, and all that we do.

[Bravus]

Two separate issues raised there, Overaged.

When I say that people mischaracterise my views, surely I am the only one able to fully judge that, since I am the only one who fully understands my views? Certainly your statement that I set myself up as "the ultimate authority for what is truth" was pretty much the opposite of what I meant and what I was saying. Not sure how that can avoid being a mischaracterisation...

Again, I never said 'sophism', so it's pointless to even introduce that word. I said 'sophistry'. Sophistry is argument that does not care about its truth but is intended only to win the argument, and I believe that was a reasonable characterisation of some of the arguments made. The majority of the arguments, of course, *were* concerned with discovering truth, and I acknowledged and engaged with those.

I'm happy to let the 'sophistry' issue go if you are, and will refrain from using it in future if it makes discussion easier and friendlier, but will not resile from my past use of it.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

All of God's promises are conditional. The only thing that is unconditional is God's love. Salvation is certainly conditional, and so are God's answers to prayer.

I don't think this is true at all John 3:17 Can you prove it from the Bible?

Apart from God's love, what promise(s) of God do you believe is absolute and unconditional?

Here are some things that are not conditional:

God will do all He can to save us, apart from forcing our will.

Christ will come the second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him and love His appearing.

The righteous will be saved and the wicked will be destroyed.

God will recreate the earth and then the righteous will live for eternity on the earth.

[Overaged]

Two separate issues raised there, Overaged.

When I say that people mischaracterise my views, surely I am the only one able to fully judge that, since I am the only one who fully understands my views?

[Overaged]

Apart from God's love, what promise(s) of God do you believe is absolute and unconditional?

Here are some things that are not conditional:

God will do all He can to save us, apart from forcing our will.

Christ will come the second time to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him and love His appearing.

The righteous will be saved and the wicked will be destroyed.

God will recreate the earth and then the righteous will live for eternity on the earth.

Good points John 3:17; however, I would be interested to see specific Biblical references for these, if you have time.

The first promise that came to my mind that is unconditional; is as follows:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This one promise alone indicates many many other promises in the Bible that are unconditional. I will post some more soon.

[Bravus]

No Sir. I would categorically disagree with that. How do you know that you *fully* understand your own views? I think this is something I could definitely discount. You may *know* your views better than me, or anyone else on this forum; but do you really understand them? The truthful answer to this may help explain why you do not think that God does not/cannot keep His promises.

Perilously close to sophistry there... (I kid).

I was imprecise. I should have added that, while God of course understands my views fully, and indeed much more fully than I do, none of my human interlocutors in this forum, which is the set we were discussing, can claim to know my views as well as I do, and therefore be able to set me straight on my own views.

[John317]

...The first promise that came to my mind that is unconditional; is as follows:

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

This one promise alone indicates many many other promises in the Bible that are unconditional. I will post some more soon.

OK, I see what you mean. You're certainly right that promise is unconditional.

All the earth and everything in it- including the wicked and the animals-- reaps the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection.

[LifeHiscost]

I embrace my faith despite my doubts just like a courageous soldier goes into battle despite his fear. His fear doesn't make him any less courageous than my doubts make be less faithful. Why? Because he isn't acting on his fears and I am not acting on my doubts.

Profound Truth! Good show,Shane.

Would that I had never failed to practice this. Too often I have chosen to lie about the woman who is with me, whether my wife or sister, lest I be killed for her beauty.

God blesses!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

No Sir. I would categorically disagree with that. How do you know that you *fully* understand your own views? I think this is something I could definitely discount. You may *know* your views better than me, or anyone else on this forum; but do you really understand them? The truthful answer to this may help explain why you do not think that God does not/cannot keep His promises.

Perilously close to sophistry there... (I kid).

I was imprecise. I should have added that, while God of course understands my views fully, and indeed much more fully than I do, none of my human interlocutors in this forum, which is the set we were discussing, can claim to know my views as well as I do, and therefore be able to set me straight on my own views.

LOL, so I am an "interlocutor" now am I? Very excellent! I love those big words. Keep them coming!

What I was more specifically thinking when I questioned how well you *understand* (as opposed to know) your own views, is that, perhaps, there are maybe just one or two of your views that someone on the forum may understand better than you? Certainly it would not apply to all of your views; but perhaps, you can sagely admonish yourself in that department and perview the grand vista of other possiblities that involve what other people may actually understand about you. (you give us lots of clues). I apologize if some of my comments seem judgmental; they are not intended that way. It's just that I know from my psychology and nursing that what we say or do often will mean something different than what we understand it to be.

When it come to our perceptions and opinions of God & His promises, those opinions and perceptions, as we see them; may have actual meanings that we do not infact see. And reasons for that are numerous. All I am saying is that you should sometimes allow a little more room where you currently do not have any room

[Bravus]

Fair point. Let me weaken my claim still further, then: if someone here knew me better than I know myself, I ought to at least be able to recognise such an insight when I see it.

[Gerr]

Bravus: The logic is kind of circular, since the underlying assumption is focused on accepting the Bible and therefore rejecting your personal experience of the realities of life.

Do not all belief systems even including science start out with some basic assumptions? And that some of those assumptions can be verified and some not?

Circular reasoning is hardly confined to the Christian faith. The evolutionist claims that life on this planet is millions of years old because the geologist says that the rock layers are billions of years old. You ask the geologist how they know that and they will say that that's because the evolutionists say that the life forms in those rock strata are millions of years old.

Bravus: Yeah, that's the argument that's usually made...[that our senses are not totally reliable].

But is it not true nonetheless?

[Bravus]

You didn't answer my question, Gerry: outside of the entertainment context of magic shows, how often do you really, seriously doubt the evidence of your senses? My point was that in a trivial sense our senses are fallible... but we don't drive through the red light because we assume our senses are unreliable and it's really green. In matters of life and death (rather than entertainment), we rely on our senses implicitly.

[John317]

If the evil spirits were to appear to you as if they're people, you will believe them if you go by your senses and not by the Bible. Remember that Eve's problem was that she went by her senses instead of by God's clear command.

I don't know if you even believe in evil angels who appear to people as their dead relatives, but it is true.

What should people do who see their dead loved one sitting on the edge of their bed and talking to them about things that only that loved one and the living relative know?

If a person hasn't practiced living by faith in God and in His word, they will believe their senses over the Bible's testimony.

[Dr. Shane]

outside of the entertainment context of magic shows, how often do you really, seriously doubt the evidence of your senses?

Well, when on LSD...

I think for the most part our senses are not the problem. The problem is our processor. We think we are a lot smarter than we really are and operate on a great number of assumptions which are probably just a house of cards.

Like I outlined before, our intellect in spiritual matters really only needs to be used to make three decisions.

1. Is there a God or not?

2. If yes, which religion is most likely correct?

3. Within that religion, which sect is most likely correct?

Once we use our intellect to answer those questions, we should be able to turn over our thinking on spiritual matters to God as He has revealed Himself. The only time we have to use our intellect again in spiritual matters, is if we need to reconsider one of those three decisions.